HD Media and CIH

[Mark Techer]

I thought I would start this thread for those that have HD media and are looking to move to a wider world of CIH.

I recently moved up from SD to HD DVD, and plan to soon add Blu-ray as well. What many have discovered is that their projectors lock to the 16:9 mode when a HD input is detected by the display. The following will hopefully cover both "Plug -N- Play" as well as the use of either a HTPC or a dedicated scaler.

Lets start with Plug and Play.

In a perfect world, life would be simple and everything would work. Unfortunately, we live in a real world, so soemtimes we need to find a work around solutiuon for our needs.

To achieve CIH, firstly we need to scale the image so that it fills all of the panel of the projector. This part also removes the black bars from the top and bottom of the image and as a result created geometric distortion to the image.

The so called "vertical stretch"is actually more to do with the projector not locking up to 16:9 rather than actually stretching the image vertically. The appearance of the tall thin look is actually source related where tradionally the display electrically stretches the image to correct geometry.

NB: This only happens when the source is set to 16:9.

The modes tradionally offered by many projector manufactures that allow this include the terms "ZOOM" or "LETTERBOX". SONY has being quite intuitive with their lable of "ANAMORPHIC ZOOM" and this mode can be found on their "Pearl" range of projectors.

In all cases, the image is displayed as it is stored on the disc before the traditional electric stretch is applied by the display.

So what happend when a projector does not allow this mode?

If your display does not allow the scaling for CIH, it is probably more cost effective to choose another projector. However if you already own the project, have upgraded to HD media and want to enter the CIH world, then emplying either a dedicated scaler or a HTPC might be a better answer.

Now depending on who you talk to, you may be told that a dedicated video processor is the only way, and having seen the results, I am inclined to agree becuase a good scaler does more than just geometric manipulation of the image. However, the price point for a good scaler can be well above what most of us are prepared to pay, so a more affodable alternative is the HTPC.

My entry into HD DVD has been via a Note Book PC (with a built in HD DVD drive) which has HDMI out. Whilst the softare from the manufacture provides good playback, it does not offer any customizable setting like scaling for CIH.

Therefore I decided to use PowerDVD and a program called YXY. PowereDVD is a mutli platform media player, and YXY is an application that works with PowerDVD to allow a very flexible (to the pixel) image manipulation to customize the image to your needs.

YXY offers both zoom and stretch setting that can be stored and later retrieved. I've heard of one CIH enthusiast who has every possible aspect ratio set and therefore is able to display every AR at full panel rez from a rare 1.20:1 right out to 2.66:1! He does not use a standard 1.33x stretch lens hoever so never actually uses the full horizontal width of the 1920 x 1080 panel unless projecting 2.66:1. His lens is a 1.5x horizontal stretch lens, and he has really done his research to achive true CIH...

Mark

[Mark Techer]

Since buying the Benq W5000, I have not had to use YXY in the PC as the projector offers 2 scaling modes for CIH that work with HD over HDMI.

I only have limited software, but I am not sure that I can go back to SD now...

Mark

[Prof.]

Someone has just commented that the new Oppo DV-983H is so good at upscaling SD, that he doesn't see the need to go to a BD player!!
I'm also beginning to question whether it's worth it, considering how well my Samsung upscales, and if the Oppo is even better..and has VS..well it might be all I need..

Also, the cost of Blu-Ray disc's is still quite high and would be a huge expense to replace existing DVD's..

What are your thoughts on this?

[Mark Techer]

Then I guess I need to get my Samsung HD 950 out of the box and give it a try. Will it be as good as HD? Hmm remains to be seen, and tonight I demoed the difference between SD and HD with the move 300 that I have on both formats.

Yes, it might be easy to say SD can look as good, but all those present tonight came away stunned with HD.

The problem I have with the Samsung player, and why it is not connected at this time is the fact that it crushes both the blacks and whites. The HD DVD player does too, but it is the only HD player I have, so for DVD, I have always prefers an SD player that passes PLUGE. I will set this ASAP and let you know my thoughts...

Mark

[Prof.]

Mark Techer wrote:

Yes, it might be easy to say SD can look as good, but all those present tonight came away stunned with HD.

I don't think any SD player can ever match an HD player, not even Oppo..but the difference evidently with there latest player is not as great as the current range of SD players..

The problem I have with the Samsung player, and why it is not connected at this time is the fact that it crushes both the blacks and whites. The HD DVD player does too, but it is the only HD player I have, so for DVD, I have always prefers an SD player that passes PLUGE.

My HD860 produces excellent blacks and whites, and good shadow detail as well...and passes PLUGE..
A very underated player...But it sounds like the Oppo DV-893H will leave it for dead!

I will set this ASAP and let you know my thoughts...

I found the 720p setting to be the best.

I'll be interested to hear the results..

[Blaser]

I have the HD 870, but it disappoints me as far as deinterlacing is concerned. It fails motion pattern tests and this is very noticeable with movies. It also cannot play brned DVD DL + disks, and this is also a concern for me. Moreover I can't upgrade the firmware that is available on Samsung website. It shows disk error all the time.
I have a chinese DVD player for a fraction of its cost. It passes most of the tests including motion tests, but unfortunately it doesn't have HDMI.

[Mark Techer]

Prof. wrote:

I don't think any SD player can ever match an HD player, not even Oppo..but the difference evidently with there latest player is not as great as the current range of SD players..

Too true, especially when that HD player can output 1080P@24f/s...Right now, there seems to be a firm ware issue with the Benq so that it will not display 24frames, but rather clocks at 60hz thus introducing judder due to the 3:2 pulldown. (hope I have that right )

My HD860 produces excellent blacks and whites, and good shadow detail as well...and passes PLUGE..
A very underated player...But it sounds like the Oppo DV-893H will leave it for dead!


I found the 720p setting to be the best.

I'll be interested to hear the results..

The 950 I have will only pass PLUGE at 480 over component. Once it is set to a HD mode (triggered by the use of HDMI), the blacks are crushed as are the whites. The player is useful for subtitle re-location, but I have found that most films in HD have their subtitles in the active picture area where they belong any way...

Mark

[Prof.]

blaser wrote:

I have the HD 870, but it disappoints me as far as deinterlacing is concerned. It fails motion pattern tests and this is very noticeable with movies. It also cannot play brned DVD DL + disks, and this is also a concern for me. Moreover I can't upgrade the firmware that is available on Samsung website. It shows disk error all the time.
I have a chinese DVD player for a fraction of its cost. It passes most of the tests including motion tests, but unfortunately it doesn't have HDMI.

Ahmed..It sounds like you have a faulty unit...I don't have any of those problems with the HD860, and as far as I know, the HD870 is virtually identical to the HD860.

I looked for a firmware update for my player awhile ago, but didn't find any since the production date, so I don't know about the disc error problem..
I think I would be contacting Samsung with all those problems..

Since my unit has been performing so well, I haven't either bothered to check for any updates..

Apart from the VS feature, the thing I really like about the player is it's ability to relocate subtitles into the image area..It's a pity that more players don't have this facility..

[Prof.]

Mark Techer wrote:

The 950 I have will only pass PLUGE at 480 over component. Once it is set to a HD mode (triggered by the use of HDMI), the blacks are crushed as are the whites. The player is useful for subtitle re-location, but I have found that most films in HD have their subtitles in the active picture area where they belong any way...

Mark

I don't understand that.. My 860 still passes PLUGE at 720p through HDMI..
The whites and blacks are unaffected, going from component to HDMI..

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I'm also downscaling again at the projector..

I wasn't aware that most HD films have subtitles within the image area!!..I thought this was one of the bones of contention about HD, with all the postings about it recently..

[Blaser]

I think it will go vist its service center under warranty then.

[Mark Techer]

Prof. wrote:

I don't understand that.. My 860 still passes PLUGE at 720p through HDMI..
The whites and blacks are unaffected, going from component to HDMI..

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I'm also downscaling again at the projector..

I wasn't aware that most HD films have subtitles within the image area!!..I thought this was one of the bones of contention about HD, with all the postings about it recently..

Proff, please don't take this the worng way, but I don't remember any of the Samsung DVD players passing PLUGE. The first one I ever saw used DVI, not HDMI and the area of the test pattern where the Blacker Than Black should have been was this horrid greenish patch - which is simply hard video clipping. One the HD950, you just don't see anything, and in fact, the black crush is actually worse than just video black or PC16, as the 4% above bar on JPK DVE is not visible either.

When you go to the RAMPs pattern, the white crush extends at least two points below Video white. The HD DVD drive in my lap top is not as bad, but does the same thing. Naturally as it the only HD drive I have, I will torrerate it for now.

The Sony BD player I am looking at passes PLUGE, but won't do me much good anyway as the Benq W5000 will not display BTB over HDMI anyway. Hopefully they can fix that soon with a FW upgrade...

I only have 11 films ON HD DVD. 3 on BD at this time, and the subtitles I am refering to are not for the hearing impared as they are most def in the black bars (in fact I could not turn them off on Unforgiven the other day), but rather the traslation subtitles which seem to be in most cases, back where they should be.

One BD (I don't known this title) that I was shown actually offeres a "projector mode" to relocate the subtitles in that film. I don't understand with HD, why they need to shift them. They are in the active picture area in the cinema, so why not just leave them there in the HD transfer - which of course is so sharp, they are completely readable anyway. Just whatch SHOOTER and you can read the serial number on his rifle...

Still have not hooked the HD950 up to this projector yet. Should do that...

Mark

[Mark Techer]

OK, curiosity got the better of me in regards to the Up Scaling Samsung HD-950 connected to the Benq W5000 over HDMI, so I am watching a DVD on it now whilst I type this post.

I have tried the unit set to both 720P and 1080i, but have to say that whilst the upscaling does improve things (marginally), sorry guys, this is a far cry from True High Definition 1080P on HD DVD or BD. I have tried a couple of methods for CIH scaling too which I will briefly explain here -

1. Player set to 16:9 and to use LB mode on the projector.
2. Player set to 16:9, then use Wide on the projector and then use the EzView function to vertically stretch the image.
3. Player set to 16:9, then use REAL on the projector and then use the EzView function to vertically stretch the image.

Interesting point to note - both 2 amd 3 produce the true CIH experince as the film I am watching is 2.35:1 and I have small black pillar bars at the ends on the 2.37:1 screen. The common approach to scaling for CIH usually involves using LB (1), but this method does actually clip a small portion off the top and bottom of the image, so allowing complete filling the screen's width.

I think mode 3 looks better than 2 or 1 here. I guess it is true to say that you can't get more out than you have put in, IE 480/576 is not the same as 1080. Speaking of scaling, I think this might work better if the player converted the SD to 540 first, then upscaled that to 1080, but this player seems to convert everything to 480 first. I would like to see how players like OPPO go as they are often said to to be the better upscalers on the market.

I am watching the PAL R4 version of Chronicles Of Riddick which I consider to be a pretty decent SD transfer anyway...

Mark

[Prof.]

Mark Techer wrote:

Proff, please don't take this the worng way, but I don't remember any of the Samsung DVD players passing PLUGE. The first one I ever saw used DVI, not HDMI and the area of the test pattern where the Blacker Than Black should have been was this horrid greenish patch - which is simply hard video clipping. One the HD950, you just don't see anything, and in fact, the black crush is actually worse than just video black or PC16, as the 4% above bar on JPK DVE is not visible either.

Mark, I have to say (and with all due respect) I find that statement simply amazing!..
On the PLUGE pattern, I see ALL three bars very clearly, if I turn up the brightness a little over the correct setting..
Even if I increase the brightness setting on the DVD player from 2 to 3, it stills shows BTB..

BTB shows very clearly as BLACK, with no sign of a greenish colour..
When I turn the brightness down until the inner and outer bars disappear, the centre bar can still be seen..

When you go to the RAMPs pattern, the white crush extends at least two points below Video white.

On the RAMP pattern, I can adjust contrast till I see ALL bars from white to black..I usually set the contrast with the first two bars just merging..

It does make me wonder why you can't get the same on your 950!!
The only difference I can see between your unit and mine is that you got yours from the US..and possibly blazer did as well..Whether there's something different in the US units, I don't know..

One BD (I don't known this title) that I was shown actually offeres a "projector mode" to relocate the subtitles in that film. I don't understand with HD, why they need to shift them. They are in the active picture area in the cinema, so why not just leave them there in the HD transfer - which of course is so sharp, they are completely readable anyway. Just whatch SHOOTER and you can read the serial number on his rifle..

.
It does make you wonder sometimes, How these people think...or not..

[Prof.]

Mark Techer wrote:

1. Player set to 16:9 and to use LB mode on the projector.
2. Player set to 16:9, then use Wide on the projector and then use the EzView function to vertically stretch the image.
3. Player set to 16:9, then use REAL on the projector and then use the EzView function to vertically stretch the image.

Interesting point to note - both 2 amd 3 produce the true CIH experince as the film I am watching is 2.35:1 and I have small black pillar bars at the ends on the 2.37:1 screen. The common approach to scaling for CIH usually involves using LB (1), but this method does actually clip a small portion off the top and bottom of the image, so allowing complete filling the screen's width.

I have my player set to Wide (16:9) and the projector set to 16:9..
This gives me a full width image with about an 1" of overscan at the sides, and the centre of the pincushion, top and bottom, perfectly level with the borders..

On my Benq, if I press REAL it reverts to 4:3...Why, I have no idea..

Speaking of scaling, I think this might work better if the player converted the SD to 540 first, then upscaled that to 1080, but this player seems to convert everything to 480 first.

Aah!!..I think that's because its a US unit..Mine converts to 576 if I don't set it manually for 720p.

I would like to see how players like OPPO go as they are often said to to be the better upscalers on the market.

Oppo states that their new player has seperate conversions for NTSC and PAL ..

[Mark Techer]

Prof. wrote:

Mark, I have to say (and with all due respect) I find that statement simply amazing!..
On the PLUGE pattern, I see ALL three bars very clearly, if I turn up the brightness a little over the correct setting..
Even if I increase the brightness setting on the DVD player from 2 to 3, it stills shows BTB..

BTB shows very clearly as BLACK, with no sign of a greenish colour..
When I turn the brightness down until the inner and outer bars disappear, the centre bar can still be seen..

Your player does pass PLUGE then. Just a point to note, you should just see the inner bar (JPK DVE) and the outer bar should just blend with the video black background. That iner bar is 2% above black, so if you can not see it, you are missing out on shadow detail...

On the RAMP pattern, I can adjust contrast till I see ALL bars from white to black..I usually set the contrast with the first two bars just merging..

If white is to be set the same as black, then yes, both should match, but I find that see crusing in the whites, so like to set the contrast a tad lower so that there is a difference between the two. Since using the colorimeter, there is a graph with will show if the brightness and contrast is too high. See the curve on the first chart HERE where my contrast was a tad too high. When set correctly, it follows the reference curve 100%...

It does make me wonder why you can't get the same on your 950!!
The only difference I can see between your unit and mine is that you got yours from the US..and possibly blazer did as well..Whether there's something different in the US units, I don't know..
.
It does make you wonder sometimes, How these people think...or not..

Possibly because it was zone 1. Back in 2000, when I first got into front projection
I found an article discussing SONY projectors and they were claiming that PAL required the brightness to be set about 48, but with NTSC the brightness could be set as low as 33. It turned out that the PAL players at the time did not pass PLUGE, and as a result, the brightness had to be pushed up. The only patterns I had at that time were NTSC, so my brightness was lower because was visible. I then contacted the SMPTE on the matter. They were suprized that the PAL player were being limited, but explained that difference was OK for still patterns as whist PAL has more lines, NTSC refreshes faster, and allows the use of Tint...

Right now the Benq crushed BTB for HDMI, but displays it for YPbPr, so my brightness on HDMI has to be set at 50, where for YPbPr it is at 44...

Mark

[Mark Techer]

Prof. wrote:

I have my player set to Wide (16:9) and the projector set to 16:9..
This gives me a full width image with about an 1" of overscan at the sides, and the centre of the pincushion, top and bottom, perfectly level with the borders..

On my Benq, if I press REAL it reverts to 4:3...Why, I have no idea..

Now that is interesting. So you get a scaled image in the 4 x 3 area? I remember you having trouble with no LB mode on that projector, but the Sammy fixed that

Aah!!..I think that's because its a US unit..Mine converts to 576 if I don't set it manually for 720p.



Oppo states that their new player has seperate conversions for NTSC and PAL ..

OK. but util I see otherwize, still not the same as true HD...

Mark

[Prof.]

Mark Techer wrote:

Your player does pass PLUGE then. Just a point to note, you should just see the inner bar (JPK DVE) and the outer bar should just blend with the video black background. That iner bar is 2% above black, so if you can not see it, you are missing out on shadow detail...

I have the brightness set so I can just see the inner bar, consequently I get good shadow detail..

If white is to be set the same as black, then yes, both should match, but I find that see crusing in the whites, so like to set the contrast a tad lower so that there is a difference between the two. Since using the colorimeter, there is a graph with will show if the brightness and contrast is too high. See the curve on the first chart HERE where my contrast was a tad too high. When set correctly, it follows the reference curve 100%...

The charts look very good, even without any ISF adjustment..It seems like a very nice projector..

They were suprized that the PAL player were being limited, but explained that difference was OK for still patterns as whist PAL has more lines, NTSC refreshes faster, and allows the use of Tint...

Hmm...so which is the better way to go?. I certainly like the idea of being able to adjust the Tint..That's one thing I find annoying with PAL through HDMI..

[Prof.]

Mark Techer wrote:

Now that is interesting. So you get a scaled image in the 4 x 3 area? I remember you having trouble with no LB mode on that projector, but the Sammy fixed that

It sure did!..The other thing is that I have DTV through component..It has a completely different range of settings on the projector, and I have it set for 4 x 3..
This allows me to leave the lens in place for DTV and DVD..I don't even have to change aspect ratio's, switching between the two..

OK. but util I see otherwize, still not the same as true HD...

No argument here..

[Mark Techer]

Those readings are after some adjustments, so that is not how they look out of the box, but all setting were made using the user settings only, not in the ISF mode which I would like to do at some point...

Mark

[Prof.]

Were out of the box settings way off?
Benq's used to be very