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post #11 of 17 Old 08-03-16, 04:13 AM
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Re: NanoAvr-DL, bass management, manually EQuing

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FargateOne wrote: View Post
I would appreciate a technical advise about how to set output level before making mesurements with Dirac.

The problem is with the sub level.

I did the following procedure.
First, with my Galaxy sonometer and internal test tones in the receiver (EQ off) , I set the main volume of the receiver for the left channel at 75 db and adjust with the receiver's trim each channel to get 75db.

The user manual for Rotel suggest to put the sub volume at the same level than the speakers which I did yesterday (Until yesterday I always added 5 db to the sub).
Not sure that this matters. I think some play with sub level at pre-calibration to manage headroom and available gain. Its benefit would depend on individual system characteristics and user preference for resulting amount of low bass.

Quote:
I lowered the main volume of the sub to read 75db instead of my usual 80db. I opened Dirac (NanoAvr-DL) and I followed the user manual to set mic input and channel outputs levels.

- I clicked the button to send the test tone to the left channel , I adjusted the output volume slider to - 33,5db. Doing so the blue bar just begin to appear at the left side of the scale reading approx -36 db.

- While the test tone is playing, I gradually adjusted the input gain slider until the indicator reaches the midpoint of the green area (-12) which gave me, if I am right, more than 20db headroom between noise floor and the signal level. I'm NOT using individual speaker level to get the bar to -12. I leave them all untouched to max position. Only using mic gain and volume control next to mic gain control to get all my speakers to -12.
A terminology clarification. I believe you meant to say "headroom between clipping and signal level." And the amount of headroom would be 12 dB ("-12"), not 20 dB. Correct me if I have misunderstood.

There are different places and ways to get a gain, a level, and to calculate headroom in a complex system like this. For instance, at the Dirac level set screen, with a -18 reading on the Dirac Live Calibration Tool level meter, my system gives 72 dB SPL. Alternately, with REW driving the same channel, I get 72 dB SPL with a -32 dB signal on the DDRC-88BM plugin output meter. What does this mean? I do not know.

Quote:
- I checked each other channels before proceeding and each registered bull's eye at the -12 level as well at the exception of the sub channel. To get the blue bar in the green zone, I had to rise the main volume into the sub by approx 3 db. But to reach the -12db target, I would have had to add 3 db more. I decided not to go there and let the +3db for the sub, just enough to reach the green zone.

I was surprised by the result. The average curve in Dirac for the speakers was below the 0 line but the optimized auto target curve set the lwer end at 2.5dg as usual: bass were then way much more louder than before when i was setting the sub at 80db. Does it make sense?

Is it crucial to first put all channels including the sub at 75db via the receiver?

After applying the Dirac target curve as optimized at this level for the sub, should I let the main volume of the sub untouched or is it better to return to the level prior to Dirac measures, i.e. lower it by 3db in order to have 75db as suggested in the Rotel manual?

Thanks for your help
My suggestion (you have already done most of this):
  1. Set level with AVR as you have. Then never touch them again. The 88BM controls give far more flexibility.
  2. Set Dirac Live levels for good readings (I usually stay between -12 and -18). Do not get too hung up on the absolute levels, there are too many variables. With Dirac correction on or off, a level can change by several dB. And Pink Noise is... NOISE! So levels are constantly changing a little.
  3. Run Dirac calibration.
  4. With desired Target Curve, optimize with Dirac.
  5. Now all levels should be properly set, relative to each other. To manage headroom, they can all be changed up or down by the same amount if needed. "Managing headroom" can get a little complicated.
  6. Do not change the sub level relative to other levels after running Dirac. Get the sound you want with the Target Curve.


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post #12 of 17 Old 08-03-16, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Re: NanoAvr-DL, bass management, manually EQuing

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(...)

A terminology clarification. I believe you meant to say "headroom between clipping and signal level." And the amount of headroom would be 12 dB ("-12"), not 20 dB. Correct me if I have misunderstood.

(...)
Thank you again for a much appreciated reply.

I still stuggle along with the concept of headroom (I am slow ! at least to understand ...my wife would agree!). Headroom to avoid clipping at the signal level is one thing. I was referring to a difference between noise floor level and signal to get a good calibration.

I was not referring to the level indicated at the right side of the output volume slider but to the scaled level indicator for each channel. For instance, let's say that I put the receiver main volume at 69 instead of 75 (this number gives near 69db in the sonometer at mlp) , then, in Dirac, I may need to read -20db next to the output volume slider if I want that the blue bar appears in the scaled level indicator for the left channel. The left end of the scale is marked -36db. Gradually adjusting the input gain to get the blue bar at -12, I thought that was giving me enough space between the noise floor and the signal level to have a good calibration. If I was with REW, I would measure the noise floor with the meter (let's say 57db), and would adjust the output volume level to 77db so I have a difference 20db to get the same result; that I thought was also () headroom !?@.

An other question if I may. Am I right to think that the difference between nanoAVR-DL and 88BM (bass management after or before dirac) is less important in small-medium size room as mine ( 1 500 cube feet approx) ?
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post #13 of 17 Old 08-25-16, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: NanoAvr-DL, bass management, manually EQuing

To whom it may concerns !
When setting output/input in the levels tab in Dirac for measurements with nanoAVR-DL (trims in the receiver for each channel are previously set to get 75db for all channels including the sub), I have better results if :

-first, increase the input gain until the blue bar begins to appear in the left end of the level indicators of all channels;
-second,with the test tone playing for the weaker channel (the sub channel in my case), rise the output gain to reach -12db in the green area of the scaled indicator;
-third, using the individual channel volume (at the right end of each channel line) lower the volume to adjust the blue bar precisely at -12db.

Now, I have a question about how to use the target curve. If I want to increase the bass by 2 db between 20hz and 80hz, for instance:

Do I change the target curve for the sub only or do I change the left end of the target curve for all 5 channels?
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post #14 of 17 Old 08-25-16, 06:02 PM
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Since all of those channels will feed into bass management in your AVR, each channel must have the increase you are seeking in the low frequencies added to its target curve.

The L Mains target curve, for instance, will cause that increase for the L Mains only, which will be sent to the sub. and be heard there. The R Mains signal will not be affected unless its own target curve is modified. The LFE target curve will only affect the LFE signal, not any of the other channels.

And that is one of the main differences between the nano and the 88BM - in the 88BM, only one target curve would be modified to give that effect. The difference between products and approaches would not be audible if done properly. It just takes a little different approach to achieve that sonic equivalence.

====

Your approach for setting Dirac levels looks reasonable. You have met the main goals of having good acoustical signal to noise ratio while not frying our ears or speakers, and keeping channels closely matched in level.
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post #15 of 17 Old 08-26-16, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: NanoAvr-DL, bass management, manually EQuing

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(...)
Quote:
The LFE target curve will only affect the LFE signal, not any of the other channels.
Just to be sure that I understand correctly: so I increase the target curve of 5 channels by 2db from 20 to 80hz but I do not change the sub-LFE target curve? Or should I increase also the sub-LFE channel?

Quote:
(...) The difference between products and approaches would not be audible if done properly. It just takes a little different approach to achieve that sonic equivalence.
I agree. It would be great if that could be confirmed. Knowing miniDSP and Dirac professionnal approach, I like to think that the results should be nearly the same for those 2 products.

====

Quote:
Your approach for setting Dirac levels looks reasonable. You have met the main goals of having good acoustical signal to noise ratio while not frying our ears or speakers, and keeping channels closely matched in level.
Thanks !
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post #16 of 17 Old 09-07-16, 05:28 PM
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Re: NanoAvr-DL, bass management, manually EQuing

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FargateOne wrote: View Post
Just to be sure that I understand correctly: so I increase the target curve of 5 channels by 2db from 20 to 80hz but I do not change the sub-LFE target curve? Or should I increase also the sub-LFE channel?
Yes, increase the LFE channel EQ as well. Then all channels receive the same LF boost.

Quote:
I agree. It would be great if that could be confirmed. Knowing miniDSP and Dirac professionnal approach, I like to think that the results should be nearly the same for those 2 products.
As far as I am concerned, I just confirmed it. No theoretical or audible difference exists, when it is approached properly. It is just a little more complicated to get there.


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post #17 of 17 Old 09-07-16, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: NanoAvr-DL, bass management, manually EQuing

Thanks !
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