Alternative to BFD, FBQ, DEQ, Anti-Mode, SMS-1

**weverb** · **10-11-08, 12:40 PM**

I have found the Sabine GRQ-3102S. I was able to pick it up off ebay for under $80 shipped. It is an option instead of the BFD, SMS-1, or Anti-Mode....

It is a graphic/parametric equalizer (plus more) that you control by computer. There are no flashing lights or anything distracting. You can still use REW to help develop your filters and then you just plug them in. I will be doing more of a write up once I get to plug it into my set-up. So far I have updated its firmware and been able to do programing no problem. I have attached a picture of the program screen where you can clearly see where you can adjust the delay as well as many other features. All these features actually work all at once. It looks like the only thing this unit does not do are shelving filters. It will do high and low pass filters though. You can go to Sabine's website (www.sabine.com) and look under the discontinued section for the manual and other information. Here is a link to a review of the Graphi-Q line:

http://www.proaudioreview.com/pages/s.0029/t.3279.html

**Sonnie** · **10-11-08, 12:57 PM**

Nice find...

Hmmm... reckon Sabine would be interested in helping us develop a new model?

EDIT: Oh well... I doubt it since their cheapest model is around $550 street price. This would definitely only be an alternate solution if you could find it on the cheap like above.

**weverb** · **10-11-08, 01:04 PM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

Nice find...

Hmmm... reckon Sabine would be interested in helping us develop a new model?

Their tech support was great to talk to. They are located near to where I live. The owner is a UF graduate and has the company located in Gainesville. If there was enough interest they may entertain the thought. Although they do have current models that have the same capabilities, but they have added a crossover option to the units. SO basically now, they are more load with options.

**brucek** · **10-11-08, 01:19 PM**

Quote:

You can still use REW to help develop your filters and then you just plug them in.

You'll have to be sure to investigate how the Sabine defines bandwidth and Q so that the filters REW suggests, actually match. Each equalizer is different, and so REW allows the selection of type in the equalizer pulldown to ensure the filter suggestions are valid.

For example, the DSP1124P, it defines bandwidth between the half gain points as:

Bandwidth (Hz) = centre frequency*(BW/60)*sqrt(2)

With the formula for the relationship between Q and BW being:

Q = 60/[(BW/60)*sqrt(2)]

For the FBQ2496 the bandwidth control adjusts in 1/60 of an octave steps from 1/60 to 5/60 of an octave, and so the formula becomes:

Q = sqrt(2)/BW

and so on..................

SMS
The filter bandwidth in Hz between the half gain points is given by:

Bandwidth = centre frequency/Q

TMREQ
The filter bandwidth in Hz between the half gain points is given by:

Bandwidth = centre frequency/Q

R-DES
The filter bandwidth in Hz between the half gain points is given by:

Bandwidth = 1.766*centre frequency/Q

Generic
The filter bandwidth in Hz between the half gain points is given by:

Bandwidth = centre frequency/Q

Well, you get the idea anyway........... you'll have to dig in their manual or support docs to find that

brucek

**weverb** · **10-11-08, 01:25 PM**

Thanks brucek for the information. I picked the "generic" eq in REW and it gave me the correct Q values (section labeled "Width") to plug in.

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **10-11-08, 06:44 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

You'll have to be sure to investigate how the Sabine defines bandwidth and Q so that the filters REW suggests, actually match.

Yeah, I had that problem with the YDP2006: I'd plug in the recommended filter, then take a sweep and what I got didn't look anything like it was supposed to. IIR, the equalizer appeared to be over-shooting the gain, like a boost or cut would end up being deeper than it was supposed to.

weverb, can you get some better pics of the Sabine? The lighting should be in front of the subject, not behind it.

Regards,
Wayne

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **10-11-08, 07:02 PM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

Nice find...

Hmmm... reckon Sabine would be interested in helping us develop a new model?

EDIT: Oh well... I doubt it since their cheapest model is around $550 street price. This would definitely only be an alternate solution if you could find it on the cheap like above.

weverb has dug up a treasure trove of discontinued pro-audio digital equalizers from companies like XTA, Shure, Sabine and Yamaha that can be had dirt-cheap on eEBay.

Quote:

weverb wrote:

I have found the Sabine GRQ-3102S. I was able to pick it up off ebay for under $80 shipped. It is an option instead of the BFD, SMS-1, or Anti-Mode....

Does the Sabine have an auto-EQ function like the SMS-1 and Anti-Mode?

Regards,
Wayne

**weverb** · **10-11-08, 08:34 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

Does the Sabine have an auto-EQ function like the SMS-1 and Anti-Mode?

No, it does not.

**weverb** · **10-11-08, 08:35 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

weverb, can you get some better pics of the Sabine? The lighting should be in front of the subject, not behind it.

Sorry, it was just sitting on the floor with the overhead light on. Will get better pix later.

**weverb** · **10-11-08, 09:50 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

weverb has dug up a treasure trove of discontinued pro-audio digital equalizers from companies like XTA, Shure, Sabine and Yamaha that can be had dirt-cheap on eEBay.

Here are a couple that Wayne was referring to:

Shure DFR11EQ
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Produc...R11EQ5_content

XTA DP200
http://www.xta.uk.com/discontinued.html

Sabine ADF-1200, ADF-2400, ADF-4000, Real-Q2, GRQ-3102, GEQ-3122
www.sabine.com

**weverb** · **10-12-08, 12:33 PM**

Here are some better pictures for everyone....

**weverb** · **10-13-08, 10:59 AM**

Well, got to do some initial testing of the Sabine this morning. To start with, the testing would have been easier if I had a laptop that I could use with the Sabine. I had to keep disconnecting it and moving it to my office area where my desk top (which I use to do REW testing) is located. That got annoying real quick. Those of you with a lap top can do REW and adjustments to the Sabine at the same time!

On to the results........

The first thing I noticed was the missing input level selection on the back like the Behringer. There is only a "ground" versus "lift" selection to help with ground loop hum. Because of this, I went ahead and used a cheater plug right away. I was able to use the same connections for my inputs and outputs as the Behringer. This was nice because I did not need to buy additional cables.

After connecting and powering everything back on..... the Sabine was dead quiet. I did not try the unit without the cheater plug though. I was just happy with this result.

The second thing I noticed was the output level was much lower than the Behringer. After taking a couple of measurements I tried one adjustment and seemed to be able to get to the same level as the Behringer.

The final observation I will mention is that brucek and Wayne are correct. I noticed the first filters I loaded did not respond like the Behringer. That's what caused me to do a few disconnects and tweaks. I believe a lap top will greatly reduce the time and headaches here. All-in-all it is a great unit and another option for those who are looking for more control and NO BLINKING LIGHTS. Below are some comparison graphs of my results.

I could have spent more time with this unit, but thought that within 1.5 hours to get this close was worth reporting. I am not sure that I will keep this unit (due to the lap top connection), but I may revisit it to do more testing on rear channel speakers.

1st Graph - No filters
2nd Graph - Behringer Filters
3rd Graph - Sabine Filters
4th Graph - Comparison/Overlay of Results

**brucek** · **10-13-08, 11:46 AM**

Quote:

There is only a "ground" versus "lift" selection to help with ground loop hum. Because of this, I went ahead and used a cheater plug right away.

Hopefully you realize that a ground lift circuit and a cheater plug are quite different. The cheater is unsafe and the ground lift is completely safe.

Quote:

NO BLINKING LIGHTS

The blinking of a BFD led indicates the filter mode is in feedback destroy. These filters are suppose to be set to 'OF' mode to stop the blinking and shut the feedback mode off.

Did you try using the shelf filters at all?

brucek

**weverb** · **10-13-08, 11:53 AM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

Hopefully you realize that a ground lift circuit and a cheater plug are quite different. The cheater is unsafe and the ground lift is completely safe.

The blinking of a BFD led indicates the filter mode is in feedback destroy. These filters are suppose to be set to 'OF' mode to stop the blinking and shut the feedback mode off.

Did you try using the shelf filters at all?

brucek

Was not sure about the lift circuit.

When I say blinking, I meant from the level indicator lights.

No I did not. It only has high and low pass filters. I was just trying to do a direct comparison to the Behringer.

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **10-13-08, 12:30 PM**

Quote:

weverb wrote:

The first thing I noticed was the missing input level selection on the back like the Behringer.

Actually, most pro-audio equalizers don't have input level switches. For my own edification I posted a question about this on the ProSoundWeb recently, and the replies I got back indicated that they are only present on lower-end products.

Quote:

There is only a "ground" versus "lift" selection to help with ground loop hum. Because of this, I went ahead and used a cheater plug right away.

What brucek said - the ground lift is different from a cheaper plug. The ground lift switch opens the ground for the balanced audio signal (which has continuity with the chassis and therefore the A/C ground). The signal ground is pin 1 on an XLR and the sleeve connection on a 1/4" TRS plug.

Lifting ground leaves you with XLR pins 2 and 3, and TR for TRS, which is the preferred method for connecting unbalanced to balanced equipment when ground loops are a problem.

Regards,
Wayne

**weverb** · **10-13-08, 12:37 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

What brucek said - the ground lift is different from a cheaper plug. The ground lift switch opens the ground for the balanced audio signal (which has continuity with the chassis and therefore the A/C ground). The signal ground is pin 1 on an XLR and the sleeve connection on a 1/4" TRS plug.

Lifting ground leaves you with XLR pins 2 and 3, and TR for TRS, which is the preferred method for connecting unbalanced to balanced equipment when ground loops are a problem.

Thanks Wayne. Any more thoughts on the results?

Next time I hook it up, I will try the lift circuit and no cheater plug.

**weverb** · **10-13-08, 01:37 PM**

Here are some comparison pictures of the Sabine to a Yamaha YDP2006. I would say the Behringer DSP1124P is the same size as the Sabine, but the Sabine weights about twice as much. The Yamaha weights a little more than the Sabine.

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **10-13-08, 01:44 PM**

Quote:

weverb wrote:

Thanks Wayne. Any more thoughts on the results?

Yeah, I intended to comment on that... Obviously the Sabine curve doesn't look quite as good as the BFD, but naturally that's just a matter of spending a bit more time running back and forth between the computer and the system.

Regarding not being able to directly plug in REW's recommended filters to the Sabine, I found it was much easier to simply concentrate on a single peak or depression at a time, taking a sweep after each filter adjustment until I got it the way I wanted (back before REW had RTA). Then moved on to the next problem area and repeat.

Quote:

Next time I hook it up, I will try the lift circuit and no cheater plug.

I should talk, I still have the cheaper plug on my Yamaha. When I get around to making the cables that use pins 2 &3, maybe I'll be able to practice what I preach...

Regards,
Wayne

**thsmith** · **10-13-08, 04:29 PM**

Speaking about cheater plugs.

I am currently using one on the BFD until I sort out mu hum problem. I ordered the DCI product which made matters worse.

Working with Dave at DCI we determined it is a SAT receiver issue and come to find out DirectTV never grounded the mast or installed grounding blocks for the cables, that has been remidied this morning.

Anyway, Dave sent me this article. This weekend I tried the cable modiciation describe on the BFD hum forum with no difference but when I tried the one Dave sent it cust the hum in half. When I put the DCI at the sub as recommended the hum was back being louder.

Tonight I will test again with a properly grounded SAT.

**weverb** · **10-14-08, 12:03 PM**

Just removed the BFD from my set-up. Here is picture comparing the Sabine and BFD. I will probably be putting these two up for sale here shortly.

Enjoy.

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **10-14-08, 03:08 PM**

Just curious, what did you find the frequency resolution of the Sabine's parametric EQ to be - i.e., how many possible settings per octave? And what are the narrowest and widest Q settings, and how many settings in between (or rather, how many total?)

Regards,
Wayne

**weverb** · **10-14-08, 03:50 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

Just curious, what did you find the frequency resolution of the Sabine's parametric EQ to be - i.e., how many possible settings per octave? And what are the narrowest and widest Q settings, and how many settings in between (or rather, how many total?)

Regards,
Wayne

The parametric menu starts out with a Q=.1 and it would let me enter in .11. I have not tested to see if it actually works, but the software lets me enter in the value. It actually let me enter in .01 for Q.

It looks like the highest Q value is 9.99. The frequency looks to be limited to 1Hz. increments. I hope this answers your questions. You can download their software and try it for free. You do NOT need an actual unit for the software to work.

On another note, I have finished removing the BFD and have the YDP inserted now. I will try and get some comparison graphs.

**weverb** · **10-14-08, 04:04 PM**

Forgot to include a new picture:

**brucek** · **10-14-08, 04:15 PM**

Your woman is going to have your neck for scratching the furniture...

What is your intention with all these equalizers? Are you trying to find the best one for your system, or is it just interest....

brucek

**weverb** · **10-14-08, 04:52 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

Your woman is going to have your neck for scratching the furniture...

What is your intention with all these equalizers? Are you trying to find the best one for your system, or is it just interest....

brucek

The flash makes the scratches look worse. Luckily they are low and not easy to see.

As far as intention, I would say both.

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