I'm about to order a BFD, but look at this...

**TJHUB** · **04-17-08, 05:49 PM**

I've been on the edge of ordering a BFD for some time now. I've read a lot of the BFD guide and many threads over the past couple of weeks. I don't want to spend a bunch of unecessary money and I have way too many toys as it is now. As such, I've decided that I just want an 1124P and I'll do everything manually.

I downloaded 1/6 octive test tones from this site and basically took some readings from 10Hz to 100Hz and used the excel sheet to plot my readings:

I basically set the 80Hz tone to 80Hz on my old style RS meter (10+ years old now) and took the readings.

I'm VERY surprised at the plot. It's almost ridiculous! It certainly doesn't sound like this to me. Overall I'd say the midbass is on the weak side and lower bass is definately hot, but this is not what I expected at all.

I want to order the 1124P tomorrow and I plan to just figure it all out and get the sub balanced and play with some "house curves".

Any comments?

**brucek** · **04-17-08, 07:17 PM**

Quote:

I'm VERY surprised at the plot.

Why?

I would set a target level of about 75dB at 50Hz.

Then take readings from about 16Hz to 200Hz at 1/6th octave points.

You have a couple peaks at 22Hz and 36Hz.....

brucek

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **04-17-08, 07:43 PM**

Quote:

It certainly doesn't sound like this to me. Overall I'd say the midbass is on the weak side and lower bass is definately hot...

What crossover setting are you using? Perhaps it doesn’t sound like that because normally your mains are supplying the midbass?

Regards,
Wayne

**TJHUB** · **04-17-08, 10:10 PM**

Sorry about this, but please try to follow me...

I seem to have some sort of issue blending my sub with my B&W 805S main speakers. I took some readings (with the RS calibrations) and plotted the results with excel:

For reference, I plugged in the "All Speakers" data into the BFD excel sheet:

Here is a shot of my room:

(so you can see the sub's location better):

For the record, I'm feeling out of control here. Should I just stop and set my x-over point to 80Hz, take readings, and use the BFD from there? I've been trying everything I can to get a smoother FR by making adjustments with what I have (no BFD). I still only get poor midbass and bloated bottom end. Music is VERY important to me. I use my setup for 70% music and 30% home theater.

Any advice?

(Please note that my room pics are from a few weeks ago. I own the black 805S's and I've modified my speaker stands for cable management. I just didn't want you to think I'm some sloppy moron.)

**brucek** · **04-17-08, 10:22 PM**

Quote:

Should I just stop and set my x-over point to 80Hz, take readings, and use the BFD from there?

As I previously pointed out, it appears you have a couple peaks around 22Hz and 36Hz. If you reduce those with a BFD and then raise the overall level of the sub so it meets the mains at the crossover area, it will be fine.

Any reason you don't use REW (which is much better than the manual method

)

brucek

**TJHUB** · **04-17-08, 10:40 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

As I previously pointed out, it appears you have a couple peaks around 22Hz and 36Hz. If you reduce those with a BFD and then raise the overall level of the sub so it meets the mains at the crossover area, it will be fine.

Any reason you don't use REW (which is much better than the manual method

)

brucek

From that last graph, I think I see more of a problem than you do. However, I've read a lot of your posts and I will have to trust your opinion.

I've spent over $6k on my setup over the last couple of months. I've also come to realize that I buy things that I *need* only to have more junk laying around my home. I *need* to simplify (as much as I can). I'm not using REQ because I don't want to purchase a USB sound card for $50.00 so that I have more stuff laying around. Trust me, I have a problem. I'm to the point now that I just won't buy something unless I really do need it. I'm thinking I'll just invest the time and do this whole BFD thing manually...

**lalakersfan34** · **04-17-08, 11:57 PM**

Hey TJHUB,

First off, I wanted to say I truly enjoyed your AVS thread regarding your journey with the Ascend Sierras, B&W's, and other speakers you considered. I found your posts to be uncommonly honest, sincere, and down to earth. It was so refreshing to see a "real" person giving "real" opinions, and outwardly expressing his desires and needs from his speakers. It's unfortunate that thread was marred by immaturity toward the end, but I thoroughly appreciated your comments

.

Ok, enough about that. About using PEQ, I'm certainly no pro, as I'm actually just learning it and using it for the first time as well. While you certainly can do things manually, REW is incredibly useful. I made a manual bass response plot with an SPL meter and test tones in 1hz increments, and I'm not convinced it came out near as accurately as REW's sweeps. In addition, REW can allow you to easily visualize the approximate effect certain filters will have on your FR. You have no idea how helpful this is until you use it (and try EQing without it!). Again, if you're really convinced that doing it manually is the way to go, more power to you. I already respect your resolve and honest dedication to your audio setup immensely, and I'm sure you will end up achieving great results. REW can just do so much to help, as well as make measurements you can't do with just an SPL meter and a piece of paper, that I strongly urge you to try it, if possible. At any rate, best of luck in your endeavor. Hope to see you around this forum - it's an extremely friendly, positive environment, and in my experience, completely devoid of the "baggage" that is unfortunately many times encountered elsewhere. Good luck!

Stephen

**TJHUB** · **04-18-08, 09:57 AM**

Quote:

lalakersfan34 wrote:

Hey TJHUB,

First off, I wanted to say I truly enjoyed your AVS thread regarding your journey with the Ascend Sierras, B&W's, and other speakers you considered. I found your posts to be uncommonly honest, sincere, and down to earth. It was so refreshing to see a "real" person giving "real" opinions, and outwardly expressing his desires and needs from his speakers. It's unfortunate that thread was marred by immaturity toward the end, but I thoroughly appreciated your comments

.

Ok, enough about that. About using PEQ, I'm certainly no pro, as I'm actually just learning it and using it for the first time as well. While you certainly can do things manually, REW is incredibly useful. I made a manual bass response plot with an SPL meter and test tones in 1hz increments, and I'm not convinced it came out near as accurately as REW's sweeps. In addition, REW can allow you to easily visualize the approximate effect certain filters will have on your FR. You have no idea how helpful this is until you use it (and try EQing without it!). Again, if you're really convinced that doing it manually is the way to go, more power to you. I already respect your resolve and honest dedication to your audio setup immensely, and I'm sure you will end up achieving great results. REW can just do so much to help, as well as make measurements you can't do with just an SPL meter and a piece of paper, that I strongly urge you to try it, if possible. At any rate, best of luck in your endeavor. Hope to see you around this forum - it's an extremely friendly, positive environment, and in my experience, completely devoid of the "baggage" that is unfortunately many times encountered elsewhere. Good luck!

Stephen

Thanks for the nice comments. That speaker search and thread was quite the experience for me. Luckily it was for the most part very positive, but most of the positive was via private messages and emails. There are certainly a lot of great people behind the scenes on AVS.

I really do love my B&W 805S's and I even after about a month or so, I still have a hard time faulting them for almost anything. But to honest, this subwoofer tuning thing is really kicking my butt. Most days I think I only make things worse...

The truth of my issue is that I just spend too much money. I've lost sight of what's really important in life. I love audio and it's one thing that truly makes me happy, but when do you stop spending? I obviously need some EQ'ing for my sub, but I'd rather spend the time than spend extra money if I can. Maybe I'm drawing a line in the sand in the wrong place? I was thinking just last night that maybe my readings aren't accurate. I've asked a coworker to bring in his new style analog RS meter for me to use this weekend to compare it's readings to mine.

I suppose I could take my desktop into the living room and run REW with my RS meter... I still think manual is the way to go for me.

**lalakersfan34** · **04-18-08, 11:17 AM**

TJHUB,

Considering the fact that you have a desktop that has a compatible sound card, I'd strongly recommend taking it into the living room to run REW. Doing things manually is a good learning experience, but using REW is as well, and I can pretty much guarantee you'll end up with better results. And while it might take a few minutes to lug the desktop in from the other room, it'll still end up taking much less time than doing everything manually. As I said earlier, being able to actually visually see the effects certain filters will have on your frequency response is so incredibly helpful - not just in making things work faster, but it in helping you to learn more about the nature of EQ itself. Here's a link to a couple of my graphs from REW - I'm a total novice with this stuff and I think my response improved a ton

.

http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/g...=nav_tab_album

Best of luck with your setup! Keep at it - the results are well worth it

.

**TJHUB** · **04-18-08, 12:44 PM**

Quote:

lalakersfan34 wrote:

TJHUB,

Considering the fact that you have a desktop that has a compatible sound card, I'd strongly recommend taking it into the living room to run REW. Doing things manually is a good learning experience, but using REW is as well, and I can pretty much guarantee you'll end up with better results. And while it might take a few minutes to lug the desktop in from the other room, it'll still end up taking much less time than doing everything manually. As I said earlier, being able to actually visually see the effects certain filters will have on your frequency response is so incredibly helpful - not just in making things work faster, but it in helping you to learn more about the nature of EQ itself. Here's a link to a couple of my graphs from REW - I'm a total novice with this stuff and I think my response improved a ton

.

http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/g...=nav_tab_album

Best of luck with your setup! Keep at it - the results are well worth it

.

Ok...you win. I'm not doing anything productive this Saturday and I really want to clean up my computer desk area, so I'll give in and try REW running on my main PC. If for nothing else, I'll do it for the experience.

I still haven't purchased a BFD as of yet. Could someone please just kick me down the path of the 1124P or FBQ... I just can't decide and the threads I've read on this forum aren't helping either!

Thanks.

**brucek** · **04-18-08, 01:32 PM**

Quote:

so I'll give in and try REW running on my main PC.

Here's a thread on the cabling and interconnections you'll require to use REW.

Here's a link to the REW HELP FILES.

You won't be sorry you put in that last bit of time and effort in getting REW up and running. There's really no other way to equalize your system than using REW and a BFD.

If you want to save a few bucks, simply enter the filters that REW recommends by hand into the BFD instead of buying the Midi interface.

If the 1124 is available, get it and save even more money.........

brucek

**TJHUB** · **04-18-08, 01:34 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

Here's a thread on the cabling and interconnections you'll require to use REW.

Here's a link to the REW HELP FILES.

You won't be sorry you put in that last bit of time and effort in getting REW up and running. There's really no other way to equalize your system than using REW and a BFD.

If you want to save a few bucks, simply enter the filters that REW recommends by hand into the BFD instead of buying the Midi interface.

If the 1124 is available, get it and save even more money.........

brucek

Thank you sir. I really do appreciate the help.

**lalakersfan34** · **04-18-08, 02:14 PM**

I agree with brucek (good idea on my part, since he's a genius

). Don't bother with the midi. It'll save a couple of minutes, but you can just figure out the filters on REW and manually put them into the Behringer - it'll take all of 5 minutes. I think you'll be very pleased with the results you obtain with REW. Here's the ugly part - do a sweep that goes to 20,000 hz, and you'll be depressed with how uneven the rest of the FR is

.

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **04-18-08, 04:41 PM**

Quote:

From that last graph, I think I see more of a problem than you do. However, I've read a lot of your posts and I will have to trust your opinion.

What do you see? I’m seeing the same thing brucek is…

Quote:

I'm not using REQ because I don't want to purchase a USB sound card for $50.00 so that I have more stuff laying around.

I fully understand – I’m a cheapskate, too. EBay is your friend!

By the way, I had to edit the “c” word out of your post – not allowed here...

Regards,
Wayne

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **04-18-08, 04:46 PM**

Quote:

(Please note that my room pics are from a few weeks ago. I own the black 805S's and I've modified my speaker stands for cable management. I just didn't want you to think I'm some sloppy moron.)

This guy isn’t the least bit embarrassed – don’t know why you should be.

Regards,
Wayne

**Mupi** · **04-18-08, 07:31 PM**

where in this site can I download the 1/6th octave test tones.
I went to the download page but didnt find any test tones.
Any help is appreciated.
I also bought the Rives CD2 but I dont think it gives 1/6th octave
test tones. If I can get them here I could return that CD
Thanks

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **04-18-08, 07:37 PM**

BFD Guide Quick Links | FAQ | Tips

Regards,
Wayne

**TJHUB** · **04-18-08, 09:15 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

What do you see? I’m seeing the same thing brucek is…

I fully understand – I’m a cheapskate, too. EBay is your friend!

By the way, I had to edit the “c” word out of your post – not allowed here...

Regards,
Wayne

Hey Wayne. I guess I don't see just the two peaks you guys see. To me, it looks more complicated. I'm concerned about the 63Hz dip I have. However, I have little to no experience with this sub EQ'ing stuff, so maybe I'm thinking too much and once I go through the process I too will say I just had "two peaks".

I'm sorry, but I don't know what "c" word I used. I scanned back through my posts quickly, but I missed it. If I did a no-no, I'm very sorry and it will not happen again (well, if I can figure out what it was that is).

I'm about to throw in the towel here and just order the stuff I need to do this right (or easier). I'm going to just purchase the USB sound card for my laptop and I'm wondering if I should get the FBQ. My Saturday is now busy and I have plans for Sunday, so since I'll be waiting to run REW, I think I'll just order the sound card Monday along with a BFD. I have a friend that'll benefit from the setup as well because he too now *needs* a BFD for his sub. (Wonder where he go that idea?)

**TJHUB** · **04-18-08, 09:24 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

This guy isn’t the least bit embarrassed – don’t know why you should be.

Regards,
Wayne

YIKES!!

**TJHUB** · **04-18-08, 09:28 PM**

Quote:

Mupi wrote:

where in this site can I download the 1/6th octave test tones.
I went to the download page but didnt find any test tones.
Any help is appreciated.
I also bought the Rives CD2 but I dont think it gives 1/6th octave
test tones. If I can get them here I could return that CD
Thanks

Right HERE. Look for the word: "sinewaves"

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **04-18-08, 10:19 PM**

Quote:

I've been trying everything I can to get a smoother FR by making adjustments with what I have (no BFD). I still only get poor midbass and bloated bottom end. Music is VERY important to me.

Hey Wayne. I guess I don't see just the two peaks you guys see. To me, it looks more complicated. I'm concerned about the 63Hz dip I have.

Okay, let me help you out here.

You say everything sounds bloated with poor mid-bass. I can see that. Let’s take another look at your combined graph and I’ll show you why that is:

The reason things sound bloated is because that broad 22 Hz situation is swamping the 63 Hz area. You have about a 15 dB differential between the two.

Now imagine if you will, if that 22 Hz area was brought down and flattened at that straight pink line. With the low-end “boom” not nearly so loud, you’d be able to hear the mid bass better, would you not?

As it is now, you’ve probably set your sub/mains levels based on that 22 Hz area. The reason is, if you used your receiver’s test tones for level setting, it’s playing a broadband bass signal (e.g., everything from ~100 Hz on down). Well, the SPL meter is “dumb.” The reading it gives you is going to be the hottest frequency from that broadband signal – i.e., 22 Hz in your case. And that’s what you adjust your sub level with.

Okay, back to our “new” plot with the 22 Hz area pulled down to the pink line. As you can imagine, once you do that, your sub level is going to be way too low. So, you turn it up 7-8 dB to get the volume back (actually, probably more – now that the “boom” is gone you can get the sub up higher than the mains, as it typically should be). Well, that deficient 63 Hz area will be lifted with it. So there, you’ve solved both your bloat and your weak mid-bass problem by dealing with the 22 Hz problem. Make sense?

I see another issue as well:

Note your two 805 plots, particularly the pink one that’s showing 70-Hz, high-passed response. You stopped the plot a bit above 40 Hz, but at that point it is only 10 dB down compared to the dark-blue, full-range plot. What slope is your high-pass? The standard these days is 24 dB/octave, so your mains’ response should be attenuated about that far at 36 Hz, which is one octave below 70 Hz. As such, the pink plot should be showing much more attenuation at 40 Hz than the 10 dB that it is. It should be more like 20 dB at that point. Again, assuming you have 24 dB slopes.

Regards,
Wayne

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