New BFD... will you buy one?

[ian-R]

I already have one but I'd hppily buy another if it had all the features of B.

A USB interface so Room EQ could drive it directly would be a big help if couldn't do all the tone generation stuff.

I want it double-insulated without an earth to remove earth loop problems.

Phantom power with a mic input and auto setup would be great.

Iwant one now...where do I sign.

[bvwj]

My company has some interest in developing this sort of product. Our primary goal is to produce a high quality audio product that demonstrates our new firewire technology. I think a sub woofer optimization device is a great application for this technology.

Our proposed system would consist of a capture / control device that digitizes one or two channels then processes this data with a leading edge audio DSP. The output of the capture / control device would be multiple digital audio streams over a single firewire bus.

New Cat5 firewire technology can then take the signal up to 100m to a second unit at the speaker. This unit is simple and inexpensive about the size of a mouse. It just monitors the firewire bus and takes the appropriate audio channel information and reconstructs an analog signal for the sub woofer line in. In a future world, this unit would be built into the sub woofer. Current firewire protocols require a microprocessor and extensive logic in each of these devices. Our technology eliminates the need for a processor at each speaker and enables much less expensive systems.

This architecture enables many quality and functional improvement opportunities.

• Digital signals all the way to the speaker.
• No long interconnect noise issues, no hum opportunities.
• Multiple sub woofer system configurations.
• One control system can offer multiple streams over one cable.
• Simplified cabling, One Cat5 cable from controller to first sub, then daisy chained to next sub and so on. PC can be connected anywhere along the chain.
• Graphical automated setup via firewire connection to PC.

I'm happy to discuss future product plans here because our ambition is to get our firewire technology in use in a practical implementation. If an existing audio equipment manufacturer would like to develop this device, we would be happy to adjust our plans and work with them. If not, the complexity of this device is well within our capabilities.

If we proceed with a community driven design I hope there would be opportunities to integrate this powerful processing platform with a testing system like REW.

If we could meet a $250 goal for a device that included filtering and SPL meter capabilities (microphone not included) would you consider this system from a currently unknown company?

Note, I am not proposing a replacement for the BFD. I'm taking about a home theater, low frequency (<250Hz) calibration / optimization system. I'm content to leave Behringer the live audio market the BFD was designed for.

Here are my thoughts on your list of requirements and our proposed architecture.

~ Two independent channels.
Fine. Two independent inputs. How many independent outputs (in your wildest dreams)
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too).
Fine. Only practicale limitation is processing artifacts and delays of multiple filters. Modern DSP's can handle this easily.
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
Probably not. All digital filtering can be accomplished in one pass at higher quality than two passes.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
Probably no analog bypass because we don't have analog outputs from the controller. Digital filters can certainly be cut in and out.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
Definitely indicators on PC interface, possibly on front panel.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
Probably not.
~ Front panel display.
Very limited
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
Probably not, possible IR remote capability
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
Surely possible, although there needs to be a discussion on the recommended sampling rate for <250Hz signals.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
Probably wall wart power supply with internal regulation.
~ Low power consumption.
Sure.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
Consumer line-level unbalanced input. Is more really required for a home theater box?
~ Hard bypass relay.
No.
~ Noise-free.
No fan.
~ 107db dynamic range.~ 0.007% THD.
On inputs and outputs.
~ High-quality components.~ High-quality construction.
Given
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
Required for home theater?
~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
Probably
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
Sure, the digital interface will eliminate ground hum potential. The DSP can be responsible for pops.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
The external power supply will provide isolated 2 terminal power
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
Yes
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.
Yes to below 20Hz (probably not to 20kHz as the system concept is for sub woofers).
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
Yes
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
Yes
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
Yes
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
Yes
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments).
Yes
~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
Yes, independent for each output, is 30 feet enough?
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
Yes
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
1394
~ Dimmable front panel LED's / lights with OFF option.
Off option for free.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED's on front panel vs. red.
few LEDs
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
black
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.
home theater friendly
~ One year warranty.
certainly
~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
24 bit dynamic range may have to do. Clipping indication available.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
Yes, on PC application.
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
Yes, on PC application, ideally notation will agree with REW.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
Probably not, possibly available over IR control.
~ Ability to slave multiple units together.
Unlikely, hopefully it wouldn't be necessary. Can you describe the need?
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
Can't this be done with a digital filter? Looks like a shelf filter.
~ Detachable power cord.
Yes, wall wart.
~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
Digital crossover filters?
~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass).
Yes, if digital filters are acceptable
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control.
Yes, this would be XLR?
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
Digital
~ Built-in test tones (sine waves - individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz).
Yes
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
Don't quite understand, certainly computer program monitoring is a priority.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
possibly
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
Display on computer connected via 1394.
~ Video display instead of LED's… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
no, but graphically rich PC interface available
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
IR control could replace many front panel buttons, and interface with home theater control systems.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
Yes
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
More likely on remote than on front panel
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.
Given IR control, more buttons is not a cost issue. We probably wouldn't include a remote, more likely to offer a configurations for Harmony and other programmable remotes. I know my theater doesn't need another remote!


What do you think?

[ian-R]

After a quick scan of the spec, I'd buy one, but I'll give it more thought later in case I think of anything that's missing.

Please make sure it is CE approved and is RoHS and WEEE compliant so it can be distributed in the EU.

Ian.

[rcarlton]

bARRY,
Wow...sounds good if you can pull it off at that price point.

[brucek]

~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.

Required for home theater?

Absolutely. Most high end audio equipment is balanced.

Output levels are either -10dBV or +4dBu nominal levels.

Most PRO amps (used a lot for DIY subs) are balanced inputs.

brucek

[Sonnie]

If we could meet a $250 goal for a device that included filtering and SPL meter capabilities (microphone not included) would you consider this system from a currently unknown company?

I think if it met the needs we would be all over it. After all, consider Behringer was virtually an unknown company in the home theater community and it's not like their products are high-end.

We would even help you advertise/promote the product.

How quick can we get it done and who is your company?

[Sonnie]

We should probably start a new thread for discussion of this potential unit if you guys are serious. We sure don't seem to be able to get anywhere with Behringer developing us a product.

[bvwj]

I started a new thread. To discuss requirements of a new system.

[gkaste]

If it was black I'd buy one. Otherwise...nahhh.

[allredp]

I would buy the A option, just simply for price concerns--though the remote control sounds very convenient!
Is this still a possibility, or has Behringer not responded at all?
-- Phil

[Sonnie]

They won't tell us anything. It is not their practice to release any info about any new products until they are released.

[htnut12]

None of those. The specs have the same failure that the present Behringer units have. No EQ below 20 hz.

[brucek]

None of those. The specs have the same failure that the present Behringer units have. No EQ below 20 hz

Re-read the new specs....................

~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.

brucek

[htnut12]

My bad. If there is 10 hz capability then for sure I would buy one. Either A or B.

[Chrisbee]

Why stop at 10Hz filters when 5Hz beckons.... like a siren?

With luck a number of us will be able to measure down to 5Hz quite soon.

Just because it comes in the box doesn't mean ya'll have to use it.

[tjambro]

I vote for "B". The remote with IR repeater jack is worth it alone.

-Tom A.

[dsiroky]

I'd by B. I use an ECM8000 to measure and having the mic pream and balanced input on the device would save me using a separate mic pre-amp.

I'm assuming it would have pass through to the PC somehow vs just using the Mic internally.

[MakeFlat]

I voted for A. For me the top 2 improvements over the 1124 would be:

In order of priority -

1. Hum isolation - just use low voltage DC power supply, like the 802 mixer.
2. Soft turn on - hmm... a time delay relay can add a bit to the cost

Edit: If the FBQ2496 is that much faster, that could be the reason to discontinue the 1124. It seems like Behringer made many similar PEQ/FBD units.

[Chrisbee]

I'm quite happy with the standard BFD but would pay more for one with a 10Hz filter range.

Soft switch on/off would be an improvement and its absence is unforgivable these days. I overcome the problem with sequenced switch on/off. But it's a bore for my wife who needs a list to turn on/off 6 or 7 boxes just to listen to a CD.

[ISLAND1000]

All I would ever need is in unit one. If the first unit does what I want and it is cheaper than the second unit I'll take the former rather than the latter.

[planet10]

lgo51 wrote:

* 10 Hz - 100 kHz -0.1 dB native bandwidth

To use one of these i would need to see 24/192 kHz sampling -- that is more or less implicit in the above comment.

dave

[kesa32]

no news at all?

[Sonnie]

I suppose Behringer feels like there isn't enough interest... or they don't want to get into the consumer market.