New setup and first round with BFD - "feedback" please?

[Bigdaddy999]

So I finally got all the stuff and then got it wired up and tested. First round test with dual HGS 12's in my room is here:
before bfd.jpg

And with a manually enhanced filter selection from REW
after bfd.jpg

Thoughts? I'm going to start playing with house curves this weekend and get some listening time in. So far, it looks good, but haven't had time to listen!!!

tx

[brucek]

Looks pretty good.

I'm not familiar with the curve you're using for your meter. Can you tell me what type of meter and calibration file you're using................

brucek

[Bigdaddy999]

I'm hopefully using the cal file for the RS digital SPL meter 33-2055. I found it on the web and it installed fine in REW. What are you noticing about the curve? Maybe I'm not creating the graphs correctly out of REW?

[brucek]

I found it on the web

Yeah, we have our own download page, and what we consider fairly accurate calibration files.

Here is the file for the 33-2055

Your graphs are great exccept you're being unkind to yourself by using an expanded vertical scale.

Use 45dB-105dB for the vertical and 15Hz to 105Hz for the horizontal. That's the standard scale we use and it allows everyone to compare the same graphs.

BTW, You don't need to redo any measurements because of loading a new mic calibration file, because both the soundcard and meter calibration data aren't included in the impulse response. The mic/meter and soundcard calibrations are only applied when calculating the frequency response.

So if you saved your mdat file, then to apply or remove a mic/meter or soundcard calibration for an REW measurement after it has been taken, simply load or clear the cal data as required and press the Apply Windows button (invoked when you click the IR Windows ICON) to recalculate the frequency response with a new calibration file.


brucek

[Bigdaddy999]

Thanks, Brucek. I had that cal file already, but wasn't pointing to it. So I updated the charts as you suggested with the following results

Before:

before bfd.jpg


After

after bfd.jpg

[brucek]

That's a great response. You already have a nice house curve there. Must sound good..... Do you notice the difference?

brucek

[Bigdaddy999]

Funny you mention the house curve. I haven't actually loaded one into the system as yet. So maybe I'm just lucky.

I also haven't had a lot of time to listen, but that's on the plan for this weekend.

However, and THIS is what all these little smiley things are for, here's the comparison with my old subs vs these HGS units. All is the same except the subs and the BFD.

It's a tad better response, don't you think?

old pair vs new pair with bfd.jpg

Anyhow, so if this looks like a house curve is applied, then is that due more to the swap of the .cal file?? Same measurements....

[Bigdaddy999]

Quick update based on some very quick testing with a Spice Girls track (of all things). "Saturday Night Divas" has some great bouncy bass lines and the BFD really changed the way it sounds. Amazing difference between the sound with and without the filters applied.

In this case, the boominess, which is kind of fun, is GONE, and what remains is a Very clean bass line for all notes right to the bottom. The now obvious coloration that bloomed out the low end is missing, and wow - very different sound! Now I understand when people say that they think their subs have disappeared when they're dialed in.

I'm looking forward to more listening on a range of materials!!

Brucek, I'd still like to chat more about the house curve comment. I guess I'm not sure if adding a house curve is what I would want, or just boost the sub output a tad more for some materials. With the two sub arrangement, I'm reluctant to start turning up the volume on the subs directly since then Im not sure I'm doing them equally? If I'm not clipping the BFD, is there any reason not to simply increase the processor output to the subs, which is now shared equally?

THANK YOU.

[toecheese]

Pay careful attention to what you're aiming for with REW. From what I've read (a lot, but I still call myself a newb compared to the duo of Bruce and Wayne).

The house curve is typically for 'HT' sound- meaning, we expect movies to be loud(er) for low frequencies.

For critical listening of music, I think most people use a different filter set and do not dial in a house curve.

If you're using the dsp1124, you'd just change the filter set to a different one for music compared to HT.

Edit: BTW, the level you're testing at is pretty high- what's your sound meter set to?

[Bigdaddy999]

So there's two options, really? One is to simply boost the amount of bass in the existing curve or swap another filter set.

For me, the HT effects are less important than the sound quality, so perhaps the same shaped curve "turned up" might be good. My processor can have different sub boost and crossover settings for music vs. cinema for example.

I'll try both and see what I like more. Thanks

[toecheese]

Bigdaddy999 wrote:

So there's two options, really? One is to simply boost the amount of bass in the existing curve or swap another filter set.

For me, the HT effects are less important than the sound quality, so perhaps the same shaped curve "turned up" might be good. My processor can have different sub boost and crossover settings for music vs. cinema for example.

I'll try both and see what I like more. Thanks

Two options? , there are 12*12 options for what the DSP1124 can do (if you cascade the channels).

But in general, yes- for critical listening, most people want a flat response all the way across. For HT, you want the house curve for that 'HT' sound.

I don't think there's a need to do different outputs from your receiver since the DSP1124 can do that for you by selecting a different filterset. The only thing you might use those settings for is to tweak the crossover point if your main speakers are higher quality than the sub for LF (or vice-versa) and you don't need the house curve. I think this could also be accomplished by the filter set in BFD.

But, it is really up to you- if you lika the big bass mon, turn it up! ;-)

[Bigdaddy999]

My wife finds it amazing that people can have discussions like this at all, let alone post pictures to strangers of their room response curves!!

I am interested, tho, to see if she likes the flatter curve. She does NOT like the bone-crushing HT sound, and after 20 years of happy marriage, I'm not about to tackle that one....

She's going away tomorrow afternoon for a couple of days. Playtime!

[Bigdaddy999]

Hi again. Another question regarding BFD setup. I may have set the processor output to the BFD lower than I should have. I had it pretty cranked when I set the initial processor output levels before measuring. Now, I'm realizing that the level LED's for the subs aren't really hitting the upper ranges on the BFD at "normal" listening.

Should I up the output on the processor? how would that impact the BFD's ability to process? THen, assuming I need to turn DOWN the volume on the subs to compensate again, would I also need to remeasure and recalibrate the filters after this adjustment?

Seems to me the answer would be "no" - assuming I can tweak the two sub volume pots equally to keep the mix the same between them.

Does that make sense to you?

Any suggestions? Or - just leave it alone and enjoy?

Thanks

[brucek]

Should I up the output on the processor? how would that impact the BFD's ability to process? THen, assuming I need to turn DOWN the volume on the subs to compensate again, would I also need to remeasure and recalibrate the filters after this adjustment?

Seems to me the answer would be "no"

That's correct. You could simply turn up the receiver sub trim output and then dial down the sub amp a bit. The sub amp level, you could set with the standard test tones in your receiver or by listening.

Our normal recommendation for the sub trim level adjust is to play a bass heavy movie scene (or movie scenes) and have the receiver as loud as you would ever have it, and then set the sub trim of the receiver to just see red LEDs flicking once in a while. That's it really. Then you know it won't regularily be clipping. Normal listening levels won't be that high, but you need to test the max you'll ever likely have it set to.

brucek

[Bigdaddy999]

I just finished reading about the hard knee curves and more threads on house curves, and now I'm wondering if I didn't fool myself a bit with the measurement and filters.

I used a 1/1 smoothing to make these charts. In creating the filters, I ended up with only a few settings:

HZ DB BW
20 -2 8
22 -4 14
29 -7 17
34 -3 7

Basically, I took what REW suggested and then played with the manual settings until i got a curve I "liked" that was flatter than it suggested originally.

Was doing this on a 1/1 curve a waste of time? Sounds good to me, but from a method standpoint, was that a mistake? Perhaps this should be in the REW forum....

Thanks

[brucek]

From a pure return on investment I can't think of anything better to do than put it all in an RRSP

Don't use smoothing on subwoofer signals before creating filters. Filters optimised against a smoothed response will have settings that don't accurately match the room's modes.

brucek

[warnerwh]

Hope I'm not too far off topic. I don't know where you guys got your information regarding house curves and music. You do indeed want a house curve with music. If you make a flat response bass will sound thing and treble too bright. Of course a house curve really needs to be done to taste but unless you have a really weird room you want a house curve.

[Ayreonaut]

I use the same settings (with house curve) for music and movies. Its great.

Make sure you have the BFD bypassed when you are setting the input level.

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Ayreonaut wrote:

I use the same settings (with house curve) for music and movies. Its great.

So do I, but I usually have to turn the sub level down for music. IOW, the sub’s house curve slope is the same, but the overall, full-range house curve is diminished. Of course, people need to experiment and find what best suits their room and tastes.

Regards,
Wayne