Proposal for the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub Equalizer 24/96 Consumer)

[Sonnie]

Proposal for the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub Equalizer 24/96 Consumer)

The consumer home theater world has for several years used the BFD DSP1124P as a parametric sub eq to level out the response of their sub(s). The unit has been extremely popular and continues to be the popular choice for sub equalization, where it can be found, being that it has been recently discontinued.

We are basing the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub EQ 24/96 Consumer) on similarities to several of the Behringer products such as the former DSP1124, the current FBQ2496, DEQ2496 and DCX2496, none of which fit our needs precisely. Following is a list of features in four categories, the first being features in the DSP1124 and/or the FBQ2496 that we would like to keep as they are. Second are the essential features we would like, as well as several requested changes from the current BFD units. These are what we consider the must haves, if at all possible. Third are features/changes that we would like, but could live without if we just had too, although we believe they should have a minimal cost factor and might be easier included than we think. Fourth are features available in other Behringer models or new features that we would like to be considered, but could be reserved for a second higher-end model if they will cause the target unit to exceed our target price.

We are not requesting a software program due to the free availability of the RoomEQ Wizard program. The target price we would like to see is $200-250 retail which will allow for a street price of approximately $150-200. It is imperative that we keep the cost to a minimum, as this is and always has been the driving force behind BFD sales in the home theater world. The majority of BFD 1124 owners were able to acquire their unit for $100-125.

Features on the DSP1124 and/or FBQ2496 we would like to keep:
~ Two independent channels.
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too).
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
~ Front panel display.
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
~ Low power consumption.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
~ Hard bypass relay.
~ Noise-free.
~ 107db dynamic range.
~ 0.007% THD.
~ High-quality components.
~ High-quality construction.
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
~ One year warranty.


Essential features and changes that we would like and should have a very minimal cost factor:
~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments).
~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
~ Dimmable front panel LED's / lights with OFF option.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED's on front panel vs. red.
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.

* If it will save cost, limiting the upper frequency response and filter capabilities to 400hz is acceptable.

With the above features and changes this unit should sell like a hot potato at a steak house. We believe these are reasonable features for a street priced unit at $150-200.


Requested features/changes that won't make or break the unit, but would be nice to have if minimal cost factor:
~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
~ Ability to slave multiple units together.
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
~ Detachable power cord.


Next are the more elaborate features that are already in other Behringer units, plus a few other added requested features, but we are uncertain as to the cost of these features and whether it would cause the new unit to exceed our target street price of $150-200. It may be that we could stand a street price of $250 (retail $299) with these extra features. We assume it would depend on the cost to integrate them into the new unit. Or if feasible, offer the above in one unit and add these features to another unit at a higher cost.

Elaborate requested features with unknown cost factor for implementation (in order of relevance):
~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass).
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control.
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
~ Built-in test tones (sinewaves - individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz).
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
~ Video display instead of LED's… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.
~ Fully integrated software program (something similar to RoomEQ Wizard).
~ Auto-EQ (with ability to manually adjust suggested filters).



If this product interest you and you would like to see it developed, you can help if you would like to. Go to the Behinger Feedback page and send them an email letting them know you are interested in this product. The feedback form will ask you to choose a product from a drop down menu. Scroll to the end of the product list and choose "General". Then in the body of the email ask them if they would to please forward your interest to the appropriate people that are making the decision on the BSE2496C product suggestion.

[Sonnie]

I hope to contact them within the next few weeks to see if they have any updates for us on the possibilities of this product or something similar.

[Exocer]

If they actually do decide to make such a product, awesome! One question though. People say there are differences in SQ between the 1124dsp and FBQ2496, giving the nod to the FBQ for superiority in this area. Is there any truth to this? and if so, would the BSE2496C include whatever is responsible for the increased SQ?

[Sonnie]

I think we are basing it on the same build as the FBQ... but I believe it would be hard to notice any quality difference using it in the low frequency range we are.

[Exocer]

Ah, good to hear.

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

People say there are differences in SQ between the 1124dsp and FBQ2496, giving the nod to the FBQ for superiority in this area.

I would imagine that’s for full-range use. As Sonnie noted, for subs it doesn’t matter.

Regards,
Wayne

[gsmollin]

The important features are an increased dynamic range, such as 113 dB, and digital I/O for the signal processing, so the noisy A/D converter is irrelevent.

[rustybx]

10 Hz is good but a flat response and filters down to 5 Hz or lower would be better. It's just software right?

I'm currently using a Behringer EP2500 amp for my infinite baffle. The amp has -3dB at 5Hz and my preamp is -3dB at 1Hz. Someday something like the Thigpen rotary woofer will be affordable and we can have low distortion 120 dB bass down to DC

Mic phantom power is a great idea. It would simplify my ECM8000 mess.

[Sonnie]

Hey rusty and welcome to the Shack!

Good point and it may be that we can work out the 5hz thing. I like the idea of phantom power too... would make life so much easier.

[Josuah]

Is this a concrete product, or just something that has been sent to Behringer for consideration? I was never able to figure that out for sure based on the posts on AVSForum. If it is a concrete product, when is a release planned?

[Sonnie]

It's only been submitted to Behringer. We are keeping our fingers crossed.

[JCD]

Are we there yet? When are we gonna be there? I wanna be there now.

On a more serious note, just curious if you've heard anything from the folks over at Behringer?

JCD

[Sonnie]

Well... I've resubmitted to a couple of different people just to make sure it's there and being looked at. Everytime I contact them they tell me that it is not dead and that they are very interested in the idea behind the product. At one time I was told that they have a couple of other products in front of this one and that it may take some time... but never have they, or would they, give me any time frame.

[khellandros66]

I think that

Front channel RCA/XLR outs should be included so you can take a RTA of the front channel crossover. So you can go

Pre/Pro LFE -> BSE2496C -> Subwoofer(s)
Pre/Pro Front L/R-> BSE2496C -> Amp (Front L/R)

This way if you can use you front channels safely set to large you can roll them off to the sub at more appropriet FS. IE My towers are rated to 17Hz but what if below 22Hz they slope -6dB and -25 below 17Hz I can redirect these frequencies to my sub that can handle them.

~Bob

[Otto]

Not worth it. You're pretty much asking for another fully variable crossover point (I think). Or are you asking to EQ your mains as well? You post above shows the signal from front L/R going to the amp. The current 1124 or 2496 can do that, but I'm not sure SQ is good enough, or if it'd get accurate enough...

Where are you getting so much programming material below 17Hz? And, man, you sure point out that 17 Hz number a lot! LOL!

Just build in a house curve to the BFD to bump that LF that you want. You should try a BFD with your DTs. I got nice results with my 2002TLs (powered 12" in each) and an M&K 2x12" sub. Much tighter, and will certainly rattle the house.

[digital_dreamer]

khellandros66 wrote:

I think that

Front channel RCA/XLR outs should be included so you can take a RTA of the front channel crossover. So you can go

Pre/Pro LFE -> BSE2496C -> Subwoofer(s)
Pre/Pro Front L/R-> BSE2496C -> Amp (Front L/R)

This way if you can use you front channels safely set to large you can roll them off to the sub at more appropriet FS. IE My towers are rated to 17Hz but what if below 22Hz they slope -6dB and -25 below 17Hz I can redirect these frequencies to my sub that can handle them.

~Bob

Bob mentions a point that I have been wondering about for a long time: What about EQ the rest of the audio spectrum?

All this emphasis on EQ the LFE, but none for the rest of the spectrum. Is it not important? I think it's just as important, if not more so. On the other hand, LFE are probably more susceptible to room acoustics and, therefore, benefit more from EQ.

What's wrong or impractical about using a PEQ with a split design - one for the sub and the other for the mains (L & R), for example? Isn't that what some auto EQ functions attempt to do, like Denon's Audyssey? Is the current design (2496) still not accurate enough? Would the SQ still be suspect (SN ratio, channel separation, etc), as you're adding another layer of complexity in the signal path?

I'd love to have a BSEXXXXC that would accept EQ parameters for the entire spectrum and save it as a preset. What are your thoughts? Not worth it, as Otto says?
Actually, I think I speak for a lot of forum posters regarding this subject.

regards,
MAJ

[Otto]

Hi MAJ,

Well, in re-reading Bob's original post a couple times, I think he's just looking for another crossover point for his mains to his sub. I'm not sure he's looking for EQ from 100-20 kHz. In my original post, I was thinking that it's not worth it to cross over at 22 Hz to try to send <22Hz to a sub. I'd say just let the mains roll off, and let the sub do its thing. That said, there's definitely no harm in implementing fully variable LPFs in such a device as this -- indeed, they should be required in a sub manager such as is proposed.

As far as applying EQ to your main signal -- no problem there! It might be a challenge, as the RTA gets pretty fuzzy as frequency increases. But with a better mic than what's in the RS SPL meter, I'm sure you could get better measurements than what I've seen. There are others around here, that will have better insight on the ins and outs of RTA than I.

As to SQ -- dunno, never did an A/B or analyzed it... I usually think of Behringer as not really high-end, but, hey, I currently own two pieces of their stuff (1124 and a powered mixer), and I'm looking for two more (another 1124 and EP2500). Without putting a ton of though into it, though, I figured it's "good enough for subwoofer management."

So... I say give it a try and let us know how it goes! I currently have the 1124 EQing the subs in my mains. I've also tried using it for EQ to my mains and my sub at the same time with excellent results. It's a very powerful tool (but you MUST have REW to use it quickly and efficiently), and will suck time like you won't believe!

[brucek]

What about EQ the rest of the audio spectrum?

You've perfectly answered your own question below.

LFE are probably more susceptible to room acoustics and, therefore, benefit more from EQ.

Typical room dimensions fall into the resonant frequencies associated with subwoofers. It usually demands equalization. High frequencies, not so much...

What's wrong or impractical about using a PEQ with a split design - one for the sub and the other for the mains (L & R), for example?

and again...

Is the current design (2496) still not accurate enough? Would the SQ still be suspect (SN ratio

You only have to include a BFD in your mains signal chain once and you'll know how truely bad it is....

brucek

[Sonnie]

Funny this thread gets mention.... I've been chatting with Behringer over the last two days... trying to get somewhere with them. They are slow!

Seems like their key concern right now is that it's a global product and will sell. Obviously they have ignored the leg work I did for them, which was very detailed. No doubt this unit would sell well up into the thousands. If I had the money, I'd take 2500 initial order and sell them right here all day long.

[jagman]

Any idea of when this may come out? I realize it is a shot in the dark... but I'm debating getting the 1124 now or waiting for this new beauty. Even though $100 isn't that much money, I'm not in a position to spend it on a product if I won't use it that long. Then again, I could always move it to a secondary system down the road. Hmm. I may have jsut had a good idea .