Blu-ray players

[wbassett]

Wayde wrote:

Thanks WB.

I did some reading and research and it turns out that now is not the time to buy any BD players. The main issue is the blu-ray profiles. I'll write something of substance on this in the near future, maybe we can keep it around this forum for future reference.

It turns out that the BD isn't quite finished yet. That's not to knock bd as a format but there is an upcoming BD 1.1 and then 2.0 (which I beleive is what they're calling the BD-Live profile).

It also looks like Samsung is about to release the Ultimate dual format player. And Denon is about to release the ULTIMATE BD player you ever wanted with high end video processing.

If you're interested in the BD format - now is a good time to be patient.

Funny, BD wasn't 'quite finished' or really even ready as far as their own standards from day one!

I have both formats, but honestly, I tend to like HD DVD a little better. Except for a couple titles that were mastered exceptionally well, the rest of the Bluray DVDs I have seen, although better than SDVD just weren't quite as good as the HD DVDs I've seen and own.

I think if it's true that Paramount and Dream Works animation went HD DVD, that's a huge shift in the tides and I think Black Friday is going to be big for HD DVD. Oh I am sure BD players will be on sale too, but not at the prices I expect Toshiba players to be.

I do like the PS3 though and am not trying to come off as a fan boy. I have mine setup as a media server where I have DVDs stored on an external USB drive in full DVD uncompressed quality (uncompressed for the majority of them to be honest, some have slight compression), and I just saw my first 1080p PS3 game over the weekend, so it's a bit more than just a player and I feel one of the few out there now that will be able to be updated to 2.0 compliance.

My brother is format neutral as well and overall I think he prefers HD DVD, but he feels ultimately Bluray will win, and right now I am leaning towards HD DVD.

The Samsungn player you mentioned, yes that is very interesting as long as it's not like the LG and just plays HD DVD and doesn't support some of the HD DVD features. If it's a full featured player for both formats then they got it right, but the price is going to ultimately kill it I think. So I agree with you, right now it's so close to the release of the new BD players that people should wait just a little longer and see what happens.

[Tommy]

I think there are 2 discs out with trueHD currently. The problem really is DTS-HD MA which is favored by Blu-ray and on about one third of all titles currently released. The problem is this, not a single player can decode the full audio track. Certain players can decode a lesser version of it but currently there is no mandatory specs forcing companies to support these audio tracks.

This is why you see PCM use on about 30% of the other titles where the space is available. PCM wastes space but is uncompressed and can be played on all players. Unfortunatly because it does waste spaces you are more likely to see this on a 90 minute movie on a 50 g disc which is still in the minority.

[Owen Bartley]

Things sure seem to have gotten sloppy lately. It feels like there are too many options and variations of formats to really have anything settle in. Remember when "AC-3" was emerging? It didn't take long to go from onboard player decoding and "AC-3 Capable" receivers to having everything established and built in and ready to go as DD 5.1, and I think DTS 5.1 fit in about the same time as a bonus on many receivers. Even with SACD/DVDA and the bass management issues, external decoding still wasn't that big a problem, and didn't take too long to figure out and settle down.

How many new surround formats are there really? I've compiled a list of the main ones, and some of their features (I think - corrections are welcome, this is confusing!)

1) DTS HD High Resolution Audio - higher bitrate encoding than standard DTS, 7.1 channels, backward compatible with existing DTS decoders - optional format for HD discs
2) DD Plus - higher bitrate encoding than standard DD, 7.1 channels for BD/HDDVD, up to 13.1 for audio, also backward compatible - standard format for HD DVD, and optional for BD
3) DTS Encore - Standard DTS but at twice the resolution (1.5 Mbps) for 5.1 channels

and the top dogs...

4) DTS HD Master Audio - lossless encoding, unlimited surround channels (7.1 channels for BD/HD DVD), backward compatible with existing DTS decoders - optional format for HD discs
5)Dolby True HD - lossless encoding, 7.1 discrete channels - optional format for BD, may be a standard for HD DVD

[Tommy]

Owen Bartley wrote:

Things sure seem to have gotten sloppy lately. It feels like there are too many options and variations of formats to really have anything settle in. Remember when "AC-3" was emerging? It didn't take long to go from onboard player decoding and "AC-3 Capable" receivers to having everything established and built in and ready to go as DD 5.1, and I think DTS 5.1 fit in about the same time as a bonus on many receivers. Even with SACD/DVDA and the bass management issues, external decoding still wasn't that big a problem, and didn't take too long to figure out and settle down.

How many new surround formats are there really? I've compiled a list of the main ones, and some of their features (I think - corrections are welcome, this is confusing!)

1) DTS HD High Resolution Audio - higher bitrate encoding than standard DTS, 7.1 channels, backward compatible with existing DTS decoders - optional format for HD discs
2) DD Plus - higher bitrate encoding than standard DD, 7.1 channels for BD/HDDVD, up to 13.1 for audio, also backward compatible - standard format for HD DVD, and optional for BD
3) DTS Encore - Standard DTS but at twice the resolution (1.5 Mbps) for 5.1 channels

and the top dogs...

4) DTS HD Master Audio - lossless encoding, unlimited surround channels (7.1 channels for BD/HD DVD), backward compatible with existing DTS decoders - optional format for HD discs
5)Dolby True HD - lossless encoding, 7.1 discrete channels - optional format for BD, may be a standard for HD DVD

Gotta love that there are about 45 movies that all have DTS HD MA tracks but not a single player for the format can decode it as MA, it gets down rezezzed and decoded as HR instead by players that can even do that much.

The largest problem is that the Blu-ray format does not make it mandatory to decode any of these high def audio tracks. So if a studio uses an advanced audio track, the studio has to allow for those consumers that have players that can not decode this track. Which means they would also need to include regular DD audio tracks along with it.

So Blu-ray is stuck with leaving everything as PCM uncompressed or including extra audio tracks at the same time, either way wastes space on the discs.

Since over 70% of all releases are on 25g discs and over 50% of releases are encoded with MPEG-2 wasting additional space could possibly come at the cost of loss of quality and/or content.

[Owen Bartley]

ugh, what a stupid mess we have. To make matters more confusing, as I posted in the "HD DVD losing ground" thread, apparently we might be seeing a lot more built-in decoding, depending on how the discs are authored. It might even prove to be for the best that way, but it really does add more complexity to the "what should I buy?" question.

[MrPorterhouse]

Tommy wrote:

Gotta love that there are about 45 movies that all have DTS HD MA tracks but not a single player for the format can decode it as MA, it gets down rezezzed and decoded as HR instead by players that can even do that much.

Actually, I applaud FOX for being progressive in including lossless audio on the discs, even before there were players/receivers that could handle it. This means that consumers can buy the disc when its released, and won't have to repurchase(double dip) a future disc that would include the DTS HD Master Audio at a later date. Sure, a standardized lossless format that's mandatory would solve this, but so far there isn't a mandatory lossless audio format, so the next best thing is to put lossless on the disc and go from there.

[Owen Bartley]

I think it's fantastic that some studios are going above and beyond and providing some future proofing in their releases. I remember how lousy some of the first generation DVDs I bought were, and how cranky I was at replacing some of them later on.

[Tommy]

Sort of like bdlive and interactivity for blu-ray, it doesnt matter if it works now as long as a few years from now it works....

It does me no good if the disc disinegrates with disc rot as has been reported in the news with some of these discs before I can ever listen to a lossless track when others have been available for the last year for immediate use.

If they want to charge for it now, it should work now otherwise I'll buy it a few years from now when it does work

[MrPorterhouse]

Tommy wrote:

Sort of like bdlive and interactivity for blu-ray, it doesnt matter if it works now as long as a few years from now it works....

It does me no good if the disc disinegrates with disc rot as has been reported in the news with some of these discs before I can ever listen to a lossless track when others have been available for the last year for immediate use.

That "rot" was isolated to a single batch of discs where the coating batch thats used to treat the disc was contaminated. Its funny how the internet can take some manufacturing mistake like this and somehow extrapolate it into meaning the the entire format is prone to disinegrating. Not the case at all.

[Tommy]

MrPorterhouse wrote:

That "rot" was isolated to a single batch of discs where the coating batch thats used to treat the disc was contaminated. Its funny how the internet can take some manufacturing mistake like this and somehow extrapolate it into meaning the the entire format is prone to disinegrating. Not the case at all.

Yes I have exaggerated the disc rot news in making a funny about my point.....

I have FOX BR discs that I have watched and owned for over a half year now that are still not capable of playing lossless audio tracks that are on them.

Lossless tracks are available to consumers today for both formats so what good does having this "future proof" track do me only to know that years from now I will be able to listent to it and get the same exact quality that is available today from other lossless audio options like PCM and/or trueHD track?