HR3200 - America on the road to communism! - Page 17 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #161 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 08:56 AM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

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doug s. wrote: View Post
i wish this were true, but it isn't. but, for sake of argument, let's say it were true - yust look around at the rest of the world, and ask how do they do it? right now, the usa's health ranks about 20th of all nations. yet, we spend double per capita, compared to what others spend.
I question this notion that our health ranks so low compared to other nations. I also question how effective the socialized medicine in other countries might be. When I see these rankings on various matters that place us so low, I have to wonder if other countries are as honest in reporting on their entire population. There are many more poor, unhealthy, and undereducated people in many of the "civilized" nations that don't get counted. I have friends from Japan, Canada, UK, Germany and France who have made this very clear to me. I was a teacher and when I was in grad school my associates from overseas would laugh when they heard these statististics and rankings.

Regardless, we are not a socialist nation. We have socialist aspects and they have been increasing for some time, but a pure nationalized or single payer system simply will not happen here. It would create massive unemployment in the insurance and medical fields, and there is simply no way that you would enforce a system like this. There would instantly develop a more severe two tier system than in any other country. Given the care that one can expect in the various government run health systems that we already have, anyone who could afford to would opt out for a private, even underground medical system, even at much higher cost. The VA and "charity" hospitals that we have now are in many ways an embarrassment. Those partially run by government entities such as university hospital systems are sometimes not much better and are certainly even more wasteful.

What makes our health care system great is the innovation and competition that is created by the fact that people can make a profit by providing better care and better technology. The rest of the world has benefited from it greatly. Even suggesting government control is foolish in my view. What we need is smart, limited regulation of the insurance business, not just in medicine, but in other areas as well.

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post #162 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 09:08 AM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

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if you cannot figure it out, then you are too ethnocentrically biased. the fact is that the prewious eight years have been wiewed by the rest of the planet on which we reside, as a compleat disaster. despite what americans may think, the rest of the planet wiewed america as the most dangerous nation, the one most likely to cause world disaster. barack's world-wiew is a complete 180 degree turn around from the prewious neo-con world-wiew. thus, the nobel peace prize - the rest of the world has breathed a HUGE sigh of relief.
doug s.
This is a curious view, but it may be correct with regard to the opinion of the rest of the world. That opinion, however, is rather faulty. You said yourself on the stimulus matter that President Obama only continued what his predecessor started. The same is true in foreign policy. The only difference are that President Obama is willing to SAY what they want to hear. The things that he has done and is likely to do are very different from what he leads the world to believe. The case of nuclear weapons is a great example. He HAS said that we should disarm. Will he actually do so, not a chance. He SAID he would close Guantanamo, but has done little differently than the Bush administration. He SAID he would get us out of Iraq but is on essentially the same schedule that we would have been under President Bush. He is willing to talk to some nations officially in was that President Bush would not, and has patronized intransigents in ways that Bush would not, but he really has not DONE anything very differently. He is obviously much more of a political opportunist than an ideologue, far more of a demagogue than a statesman or peacemaker.

The Nobel prize is supposed to be given for accomplishments promoting world peace in the previous year. It has often been more about perception and imagined relative behavior changes than real movement toward world peace. It is not such a surprise that the rest of the world has been taken in by President Obama's rhetoric and self promoting style. He is an excellent politician. Unfortuantely, leadership requires more than slick politics.

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post #163 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 10:46 AM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

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Richard W. Haines wrote: View Post
doug s,

Okay. I'll try one more time just focusing on two of your statements that
I discussed previously.

You said that Israel is similar to the former Apartheid system of South Africa.
Could you cite some example illustrating where Arabs don't have the same civil rights
as Jews there? I understand that there is a lot of controversy over the land for
peace issue and building new settlements in the Golan Heights area (which I'm not
in favor of) but I don't see any linkage to Apartheid within thier government structure.
in israel, the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits arabs to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, impacting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship. the joint document the future vision of the palestinian arabs in israel, asserts: "defining the israeli state as a jewish state and exploiting democracy in the service of its jewishness excludes us, and creates tension between us and the nature and essence of the state." the document explains that by definition the "jewish state" concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards jews enshrined in immigration (the law of return) and land policy (the jewish national fund).

and, this discusses only those within the original territory of israel, this speaks nothing of the atrocities faced by those in the occupied territories. the palestinians wiolate one u.n. resolution, and all hell breaks loose; the israeli's wiolate resolution after resolution, and no one even bats an eye.

in 1948, when israel was created, hundreds of thousands of palestinians were now told their country was no longer. how would you feel if the u.n., to make up for the america's & the world's turning a blind eye to the native american indians, decided that all land in ny, south of i84, to nj and ct, to include manhattan island, would be given to the native americans, to have their own nation and do as they see fit, make any laws they like, etc?

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Richard W. Haines wrote: View Post
Could you also qualify your statement suggesting that in my healthcare
discussion I wanted people to die quickly?
sorry, it was steve, not you:

Getting rid of employer provided health care and making it an individual responsibility on a case by case basis will even out the playing field for small businesses and the unemployed.

Leave "all holders of the same plan" out of it and focus on the individual. Car insurance is a case by case basis and health care should be as well - the majority can't be punished because of a few. If your family history shows tendencies for diseases, if you are obese, if you smoke, if you don't exercise, etc., you're health care needs to be more expensive than someone who is the opposite.


i am sorry, but this is yust so wrong, in any civilized society, imo. everyone has different lifestyles, & different lifestyle choices. yes, smoking, eating poorly, not exercising are contributors to poor health. but, there are other activities people pursue that put them at risk. it is simply better - and more humane - to simply care for those who need it, while informing society about healthier lifestyle choices.

every other industrialized nation on this planet, regardless of its lifestyle, cares for all its people, and for a much lower cost than in the usa. the insurance companies & drug companies have run amock here. allowing healthcare to be a "free-for-all", where everyone is out for themselves, will only see more folks w/o health insurance than we now have, and higher costs for everyone.

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post #164 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 10:55 AM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

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lcaillo wrote: View Post
This is a curious view, but it may be correct with regard to the opinion of the rest of the world. That opinion, however, is rather faulty. You said yourself on the stimulus matter that President Obama only continued what his predecessor started. The same is true in foreign policy. The only difference are that President Obama is willing to SAY what they want to hear. The things that he has done and is likely to do are very different from what he leads the world to believe. The case of nuclear weapons is a great example. He HAS said that we should disarm. Will he actually do so, not a chance. He SAID he would close Guantanamo, but has done little differently than the Bush administration. He SAID he would get us out of Iraq but is on essentially the same schedule that we would have been under President Bush. He is willing to talk to some nations officially in was that President Bush would not, and has patronized intransigents in ways that Bush would not, but he really has not DONE anything very differently. He is obviously much more of a political opportunist than an ideologue, far more of a demagogue than a statesman or peacemaker.

The Nobel prize is supposed to be given for accomplishments promoting world peace in the previous year. It has often been more about perception and imagined relative behavior changes than real movement toward world peace. It is not such a surprise that the rest of the world has been taken in by President Obama's rhetoric and self promoting style. He is an excellent politician. Unfortuantely, leadership requires more than slick politics.
you are missing the point - barack said early on, before we ever inwaded iraq, that it was a mistake to do so. barack didn't start the war in iraq. barack didn't set up human rights wiolations in guantanamo. barack's administration didn't create the economic disaster he inherited. and barack's willingness to engage others, where dubyah refused, is seen as a strength to the rest of the world, not a weakness, as some in the usa think... that is the big change in the world wiew.

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post #165 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 11:09 AM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

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So who do you think managed to bring down the towers? Where is the evidence of explosions in the basement of the towers that you believe caused the collapse? I do not see the "collapsing simultaneously from the bottom" in the videos that I have seen. I think you also discount the enourmous kinetic energy form the impacts. I have repeatedly looked into the various arguments of a conspiracy in this matter to try to understand this very odd perspective and can come to no conclusion other than those who support such theories are doing so based on some emotional need to vent anger and are unwilling to direct it toward those who desire to harm our nation, but prefer to direct it inward.
honestly, i really do not know who or what brought down the wtc towers. but, i know for sure what didn't bring them down. the laws of physics rule. my personal opinion, is that some folks somewhere caught whiff of the terrorist plot, and took adwantage of it to suit their purposes- like the owner of the wtc towers, who had a hard time renting #7, and stood to collect a huge ins policy if anything happened to #'s 1 & 2. and, perhaps some neocons, who preached even in the 1990's that they needed a "pearl harbor type incident", that would conwince the american public of our need to inwade iraq, even if it weren't a direct cause. now, i didn't make this up, you could read it on the pnac's website. as far being able to prove anything? you're correct - no way. again, all i know is what didn't
happen...

and, regarding the idea that it's hard to follow my posts, that i present my beliefs/opinions as facts/etc? well that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, imo - nothing more than a smoke screen. sure, i state my opinions. but, they are based upon educated research. i, like everyone else, has access to reams & reams of info, from all sides of all issues - the web has allowed for faster and larger info exchange than any time in recorded history. and, i, also like everyone else, can draw my own conclusions from the info i gather; yust because they may differ from yours doesn't mean i have any less of a grasp on the facts than you do. i also like to think that the fact that i have an iq of 160 helps...

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post #166 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 02:48 PM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

doug s,

When someone is interested in understanding your position and you respond by complaining "the other guy doesn't produce facts," you don't do anything to convince anyone that your opinion is of any more value than another. The banter is boring. Put some facts to what you have to say or your rant is no more useful than the others found in this thread. If you read my commentary of the others, I am equally critical of the right when it produces little more than recriminations and blustery opinion.

When you say something as controversial and contrary to the vast majority of opinions by engineers who studied the matter much more than you like "know for sure what didn't bring them down" yet don't offer substantive proof other than your own conjectures, you lose a great deal of credibility. The notion that someone could pull off such an enormous project and not leave significant evidence behind that would have been discovered by the thousands of workers and investigators is simply incomprehensible. The scale of such a cover-up would have to be so great that no entity could have pulled it off. Your "engineering" is no more than innuendo. Produce some actual facts or leave the subject of the 911 attack and collapse of the towers alone. This site will not be allowed to become a soap box for such nonsense.

As I said, there is much patience being afforded you, but you need to provide some reason for us to take you seriously. It appears that there is little substance when you refuse to provide facts to back up your points.

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post #167 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 03:04 PM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

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doug s,

When someone is interested in understanding your position and you respond by complaining "the other guy doesn't produce facts," you don't do anything to convince anyone that your opinion is of any more value than another. The banter is boring. Put some facts to what you have to say or your rant is no more useful than the others found in this thread. If you read my commentary of the others, I am equally critical of the right when it produces little more than recriminations and blustery opinion.

When you say something as controversial and contrary to the vast majority of opinions by engineers who studied the matter much more than you like "know for sure what didn't bring them down" yet don't offer substantive proof other than your own conjectures, you lose a great deal of credibility. The notion that someone could pull off such an enormous project and not leave significant evidence behind that would have been discovered by the thousands of workers and investigators is simply incomprehensible. The scale of such a cover-up would have to be so great that no entity could have pulled it off. Your "engineering" is no more than innuendo. Produce some actual facts or leave the subject of the 911 attack and collapse of the towers alone. This site will not be allowed to become a soap box for such nonsense.

As I said, there is much patience being afforded you, but you need to provide some reason for us to take you seriously. It appears that there is little substance when you refuse to provide facts to back up your points.
lcaillo, first let me state that you seem to be the only one whose posts to this thread consistently make any sense, fwiw.

re: my posts, no ranting going on whatsoever.

and, if all you complain about re: my failure to produce facts is reference to what happened re: the wtc towers, i am ok w/that. i have spent hours and days and weeks poring over much info on the web about what may or may not have happened there, over the past several years. i have read much info from many engineers, who do not all agree on what may or may not have happened there. i really do not care whether you or anyone else thinks my "engineering" is innuendo or not - i am not out to prove anything. i have a life, i do not need to go back and spend time pulling up the links to what i have read that sway me. i have read a ton of stuff, and i have my own mind, which knows how stuff works, based on, among other things, 30+ years' experience in design & construction; i have come to my own conclusions. you or anyone else, are free to read as much (or as little) as you wish, and come up w/your own conclusions...

respectfully,

doug s.
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post #168 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 03:12 PM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

and my conclusion is that anyone who believes that someone blew up the trade center towers to cause them to fall is simply not rationally evaluating the evidence. Every bit of evidence that I have ever seen supporting these notions has such problems that one cannot conclude anything, certainly not prove it. It is only a belief and an irrational one in the view of the vast majority. You have failed to produce even one fact that leaves any doubt that the idea is defensible. If you choose to leave it at that then drop it. If you have evidence produce it. You are welcome to your opinion but it has been stated. There is no more room for discussing it without backing facts.

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post #169 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 03:40 PM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

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and my conclusion is that anyone who believes that someone blew up the trade center towers to cause them to fall is simply not rationally evaluating the evidence. Every bit of evidence that I have ever seen supporting these notions has such problems that one cannot conclude anything, certainly not prove it. It is only a belief and an irrational one in the view of the vast majority. You have failed to produce even one fact that leaves any doubt that the idea is defensible. If you choose to leave it at that then drop it. If you have evidence produce it. You are welcome to your opinion but it has been stated. There is no more room for discussing it without backing facts.
works for me. and, your statements re: "every bit of evidence you have seen" are no more rational or factual than mine. you can practice what you preach. or not, it doesn't really matter, now does it? since we both can go on the web and find many many articles supporting both positions.

best,

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post #170 of 224 Old 10-20-09, 04:17 PM
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Re: HR3200 - America on the road to communism!

You are the one suggesting something that the vast majority thinks is nonsense. As I pointed out to others, you will convince no one of anything without producing some facts. I do not need to produce facts because they are acdepted by all but a fringe of the population. You are the one making the claims for something very far from the reality of the mainstream. There is not even a serious debate about it among most intelligent individuals in this country, regardless of their politics.

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