Bonds Vs Babe

**kingkip** · **05-23-06, 12:35 AM**

Any baseball fans out there? How do you feel about Bonds tying Ruth?

I find myself rather indifferent, the guy is not my favorite person and probably a cheat.

**Sonnie** · **05-23-06, 01:33 AM**

I'm not much of a Bonds fan myself. He definitely got caught.

I'm a Braves fan... not a fanatic but I like to watch them play all along and when it gets to the playoffs.

**Tommy** · **05-23-06, 09:19 AM**

Quote:

kingkip wrote:

Any baseball fans out there? How do you feel about Bonds tying Ruth?

I find myself rather indifferent, the guy is a jerk and probably a cheat.

He is not my favorite person and I dont like baseball anyway.

As for the cheat issue, I say if it helps, take it. Some of the reasons for eating healthy, exercising, taking supplements etc is to improve performance. If meds do the same thing, I dont see that much of a difference between that and supplements. Also I would like to see just how chemically enhanced a person can get.

As someone who has been on and off health kicks over the years I have noticed suplements are legal up until there proven to work then they are re-classified as steroids.

**Sonnie** · **05-23-06, 03:12 PM**

Let's be careful what we say about him... he's probably reading...

(hide your googlemap... i think he's lurkin')

**JCD** · **05-30-06, 03:47 PM**

Slight bump..

Can't stand the guy, and I'm from the Bay Area (although I'm really a Dodger fan). He represents SO many things that are wrong about pro sports today.

As for the steroid thing, I think he should DEFINITELY have an asterisk after ALL of his HR records. I know he still has to 'hit the ball', but strength helps! Also, a overlooked issue is the recovery time for someone on steroids -- being on the road, playing so many games, it takes a toll on a player. With steroids, Bonds recovered much more quickly than Aaron, Ruth or Maris ever could/did. And to me, that's what stats are really supposed to represent, a comparison of players from different leagues/times/etc. With steroids put in to the mix, I think the whole apples to apples comparison is lost.

Also, two numbers why Bonds can't be compared to Ruth -- 94 and 2.28. Those are the number of wins and lifetime ERA he had as a pitcher.

JCD

**Sonnie** · **05-30-06, 05:01 PM**

Good points Jacen... I wonder will he make it to the Hall of Fame (or Shame)?

**kingkip** · **05-30-06, 11:46 PM**

Quote:

Tommy wrote:

As for the cheat issue, I say if it helps, take it. Some of the reasons for eating healthy, exercising, taking supplements etc is to improve performance. If meds do the same thing, I dont see that much of a difference between that and supplements. Also I would like to see just how chemically enhanced a person can get.

As someone who has been on and off health kicks over the years I have noticed suplements are legal up until there proven to work then they are re-classified as steroids.

The problem is that it is not just cheating. It is illegal. There are many celebrated cheats in baseball some even in the hall of fame. However, when one uses illegal drugs there is a problem. Dwight Gooden anyone? Baseball drummed him out, and I think it would be a tough argument to make that cocaine is performance enhancing in the way that steriods are. Cheating and illegal.

I also have a hard time believing that supplements are okay until they work and then reclassified. Steriods are harmful, do you really want kids to look at Barry and think it is okay to juice?

I hardly think you can compare eating healthy to steriod use.

**Tommy** · **05-31-06, 06:46 AM**

Quote:

kingkip wrote:

I hardly think you can compare eating healthy to steriod use.

Point taken and Im not even a sports fan. But the guy from baseball a few years back, I dont even know his name was taken a legal pro-hormone that was sold in supplement stores that recently was just reclassified and is now considered a steroid. Also that years ago steroids was legal so some of these older records probably do include athletes that were using one form or another of a peformance enhancer.

When I'm training I take things that are sold in the supplement store and can only think that who knows one day what may be reclassified.

But I dont want to debate on the side of this so I'll try to jump off this subject now.

**kingkip** · **06-01-06, 11:34 AM**

Hey Tommy, you are talking about Mark McGuire (pretty sure on that). He said all he was taking was creatine, which to my knowledge is still legal and classified as a supplement and Human Growth Hormone, I'm not sure where that falls. However, after hearing his grand jury testimony and reading Game of Shadows it is pretty likely that he was a juicer too. I will absolutely agree that some records have been broken by cheaters and that in some way it probably taints the game. My original point was that doctoring a baseball is not illegal and taking steriods is. I hope you don't jump ship on me, it is much more fun when someone has a different view. I hope you think I wasn't trying to beat you down or something.

**jmprader** · **06-07-06, 02:08 PM**

Barry is one of many suspects out there. He is easy not to like, especially due to his bad relationship with most of the press....but...

Take a short detour and examine not only baseball, but other mainstream professional and semi-professional, college and even high school sport (!) out there and tell me if Barry isn't just another example of a massive problem that permeates every level of the sports world. If he's guilty, he's not the first, won't be the last and certainly isn't the worst offender (if we can even consider gradients of cheating)...

When you're done with the sports world, look what behaviors we have condoned in business and government.

I have a pretty jaundiced eye about a lot of it. Barry is just a speck on the gnat on the elepants arse viewed under a microscope...

**kingkip** · **06-08-06, 01:58 PM**

Very true, however Barry may just be the one to finally break the issue wide open. I agree that this isn't going to end cheating, but it is a step in the right direction anyway.

Government etc is way outside the scope of this thread. And while I can't say I'm a Bush supporter at least he isn't a juicer.

**jmprader** · **06-08-06, 02:50 PM**

Quote:

kingkip wrote:

Very true, however Barry may just be the one to finally break the issue wide open. I agree that this isn't going to end cheating, but it is a step in the right direction anyway.

Government etc is way outside the scope of this thread. And while I can't say I'm a Bush supporter at least he isn't a juicer.

No intention whatsoever of pointing a finger at any party or subset thereof! I only pointed to Bus. and Gov. as further evidence that there is a prospective structural issue...beyond my "here and now" ability to fully understand and way into the ether for here. Perhaps we can tackle these greater issues some late night after a few too many glasses of single malt or other preferred spirit...

**kingkip** · **06-09-06, 04:33 AM**

Aha! So it's philosophisizing you want. You got it. Let me know when you want to enjoy that single malt and we'll enjoy some invigorating if somewhat misspelled banter.

**FlashJim** · **08-17-06, 02:29 PM**

How about Pete Rose and the betting scandal? That pales in comparison to Bonds.

Sonnie, I lived in Atlanta for 10 years. We got box seats behind home plate all the time for free in '88 and '89. When they went from worst to 1st, that was all over. You couldn't get tickets.

**Sonnie** · **08-17-06, 04:34 PM**

I can imagine... they couldn't give away tickets at one time. If they continue in the same fashion as they are now, it could get that way again.

I've never been a Pete Rose fan, but I think it was a situation where he just got caught. No telling how much of that still goes on today.

**F1 fan** · **08-17-06, 10:30 PM**

The saddest drug story in baseball has to be Darryl Strawberry.Gosh was he talented !If he could have stayed clean he would surely would have set a few records and be mentioned along with Ruth and Maze and the like as one of the greatest.As far as Bonds I agree with JCD that he should have an asterik beside his name in the Hall of fame.I think Rose deserves to be in the Hall more so than Bonds ,McGuire and Palmero.

**Sonnie** · **08-17-06, 11:00 PM**

You know, I had plum forgot about Strawberry. He could have been a Hall of Famer I believe... yep... truly sad.

**JCD** · **08-18-06, 01:30 PM**

Another sad case was Steve Howe, pitcher most known with the Dodgers. I can only imagine what kind of career he could have had if he didn't have a cocaine and alcohol problem.

Sadder still, he was killed in an auto accident this last June. He had meth in his system at the time.

JCD

**F1 fan** · **08-18-06, 06:55 PM**

Gee, hadn't heard about Howes tragic accident.He was a good one and might have even had a Cy young or two if he was able to overcome his problems.

**kingkip** · **08-21-06, 02:12 AM**

Now here is something interesting, Doc and Howe and the rest. Drummed out of baseball for coke. Why? If we are not going to kick out steroid users, how can kicking out coke addicts be justified. At least coke is not performance enhancing. Food for thought.

**F1 fan** · **08-21-06, 07:16 PM**

Quote:

kingkip wrote:

Now here is something interesting, Doc and Howe and the rest. Drummed out of baseball for coke. Why? If we are not going to kick out steroid users, how can kicking out coke addicts be justified. At least coke is not performance enhancing. Food for thought.

Maybe its a legal issue .Coke use has always been illegal but I am not sure that juice use is unless they have recently changed the laws in the US.?I guess Marion Jones would Know

Doc and Straw certainly where given lots of chances to get their act together .

**kingkip** · **08-25-06, 04:44 PM**

Quote:

F1 fan wrote:

Maybe its a legal issue .Coke use has always been illegal but I am not sure that juice use is unless they have recently changed the laws in the US.?.

Nope, steriods are illegal too, unless prescribed by a doc. And no doc prescribes them for that kind of use. My thought is that it is how the drugs are perceived. Steroids are not a "fun" drug, not used for tuning out. Steroid users are seemingly in good health, even though that is absolutely not true in the long run. Somewhere along the line society decided that coke=bad and steroids you just look the other way.

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