Sub reviewing/reviewer discussion

**Sonnie** · **06-07-06, 03:19 AM**

What... we move it to off topic and now nobody wants to talk about it anymore?

Has anyone gotten any kind of response from Ilkka about possibly posting over here?

**Fincave** · **06-07-06, 05:57 AM**

I have not received any reply from Ilkka as yet. Have also been checking the Finnish forum but no results are posted, Ilkka did mention that it is a bit more work than initially anticipated and that he does not want to post a report that is only 95% complete. He did also mention in his thread something about a sub forum that needed to be worked on with the administrator of the Finnish forum. Will post a link as soon as I notice that it is up, that is if no one beats me to it!

**jmprader** · **06-07-06, 02:54 PM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

What... we move it to off topic and now nobody wants to talk about it anymore?

Has anyone gotten any kind of response from Ilkka about possibly posting over here?

Sonnie:

Ok, I love a soapbox.

Maybe the posted comments nearly resolved differences of opinion. For example, maybe some agree with my position that it wasn't just Ilkka being picked on by others, but perhaps a combination of the two, and maybe to others the matter, or my opinion didn't merit further the bandwidth for further discussion (my wife often shares that sentiment).

The only direct contra-argument I think was Steve Callas' general statements as to "the truth". I don't agree with Steve, but he's generally a straightforward guy from what I've seen, he's helpful in the DIY world, he's entitled to his opinion and I can respect people like that. Other than that, TV and I did a little point-counterpoint and maybe that was all that was needed to reach a better understanding of where we sit...or maybe Tom and co. are busy pushing the envelope with new product research, the results of which speak volumes more than nattering on the boards!

I don't think anyone disagrees that Ilkka is a bright guy and his testing efforts can make for worthwhile reading. If he can participate in the mainstream Shack forums and everyone participating can keep on topic, that would be a good thing.

It's typically when the personal garbage cans of the past start getting emptied on-line that things go awry.

What I do appreciate is that, despite my apparent non-mainstream opinion on the "banning" aspects, nobody decided to take the off topic chat to the level of low-blows.

**Sonnie** · **06-07-06, 04:21 PM**

Soapboxes are good... as you eluded to, as long as we can keep the low-blows culled and thing in fact do not go awry. Naturally we gotta keep them in the off topic area though. This is one thing that I hope will help us stand out from other similar forums. Of course that does get harder to control once you get tens and hundreds of thousands of members.

Ilkka and I have had our gentle rounds... all kept clean and all on topic. We had a difference in our response measurements when calibrating the RS meters. The difference was at 10hz. We were a pretty far distance off and I think he either had a glitch in his software or his mic is off. I've done about a dozen measurements and they've all been consistent. I only know of that one he has done and it's not consistent with any of the other test I've seen at that particular frequency. We went back and forth about this but again, it was on topic and clean... no punches below the belt. He was gonna do some more measurements but I haven't seen them yet and that was a while ago.

All in all... I enjoy Ilkka's tests of subs and I think he does an admirable job. He sure seems to put a lot into it.

If he does decide to embrace us with his tests, we will no doubt monitor it and if it does get out of hand then we'll curb the part that doesn't belong.

I just really have no use for folks who are going to continually go around to various threads and find fault with everything... constantly causing havoc. You can have a difference of opinion without all the havoc and low blows, etc. We will ban those types in a heartbeat and not look back.

**Ilkka** · **06-08-06, 05:32 PM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

Ilkka and I have had our gentle rounds... all kept clean and all on topic. We had a difference in our response measurements when calibrating the RS meters. The difference was at 10hz. We were a pretty far distance off and I think he either had a glitch in his software or his mic is off. I've done about a dozen measurements and they've all been consistent. I only know of that one he has done and it's not consistent with any of the other test I've seen at that particular frequency. We went back and forth about this but again, it was on topic and clean... no punches below the belt. He was gonna do some more measurements but I haven't seen them yet and that was a while ago.

Those subwoofer measurements have been eating up every bit of extra time I've had in last two months. That's why I haven't posted anything about RS measurements. But I did measure my RS meter again and I got almost identical results with the first time. So it's not my software or mic, it's my RS meter. It's sensitivity below ~15 Hz is different from yours (or the ones you have measured). This is unfortunately one thing we all should remember while using it for subwoofer measurements. Using your (thank you for all the work you have done

) correction factors can make it enough accurate, but no one (without further measurements) can make sure it will be dead accurate. I will definitely recommend a better mic if one is interested in taking more serious (subwoofer) measurements. RS is a great first choise, but it can only take you so far.

**Sonnie** · **06-08-06, 05:39 PM**

oops...

I apologize for including the fact it could have been your RS meter. It is probable that if you used the meters I have tested we'd get the same results... or very close.

Another thing we should remember is that in most cases we are not going to be able to adjust below 20hz anyway... at least not with the present BFD we have... so what is measured down there would be merely FYI.

**bobgpsr** · **06-09-06, 08:33 AM**

Wish I could read Finnish

. The InterTran translator does not seem to have a very technical vocabulary:

Quote:

Wicked news Heavily yrityksestä despite harvest not ole vieläkään julkaisukunnossa. Output revision artful estimated more at and furthermore en ole access Michael shut interlocking uuden alifoorumin luontiin näette ago ). Science , that this hope began already bore joitakin , only en desirous ruin many month activity unpublished 95sti%: ready-made profitable. It olisi worst mistake which health inflict here vaiheessa. Odotuksenne nevertheless recompense , credence away. IDn : ( it mm. Quaken tehnyt company slogania julkaisuajankohdasta quoting : when it's done ".

I think this was Ilkka's (aka Zipman) most recent post (June 4th) about the new testing on dvdplaza.fi

http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showpo...&postcount=313

Bob

**Ilkka** · **06-09-06, 01:29 PM**

Quote:

bobgpsr wrote:

Wish I could read Finnish

. The InterTran translator does not seem to have a very technical vocabulary:

I think this was Ilkka's (aka Zipman) most recent post (June 4th) about the new testing on dvdplaza.fi

http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showpo...&postcount=313

Bob

LOL! That's pretty wild...

I just mentioned that I won't be posting the results yet (last weekend), because I don't want to throw away the work I've done by posting only 95% complete results.

**Ilkka** · **06-10-06, 05:32 AM**

Post deleted by Moderator. Relationship issues between Members should not be aired here but taken off-line.

**bobgpsr** · **06-10-06, 10:44 AM**

I agree with Ilkka that when I see something posted that I feel is technically wrong it is almost irresistable to forego posting back. For example if a person posts a TrueRTA plot of a commercial subwoofer and says that it is smoothed to 1/6th octave when in fact it was only sampled at 1/6 octave, then I post and show a raw 1/24th octave sampled plot with a 1/6 octave smoothed result also showing. Other big controversies have been with 4 pi testing that was only 17ft in the air with correction factors to compensate that were only valid for a different sub -- and claiming that these tests were far superior to Ground Plane (quasi 2 pi).

With all that said let us try to keep the spirited discussions restricted to technical points or preceived performance of equipment. Please let us all stay away from posting personal comments, instead use PM for that. I know that I get frustrated and really want to post about a person's personal agenda or retort to a person's slander about someone else's sex life. But it would do no good. Jack Gilvey has made the comment in effect, that often one's opinion of a person goes up as judged by the caliber/(e.g. lack of caliber) of that person's enemies.

**SteveCallas** · **06-10-06, 02:08 PM**

But this is the Chat Box area

Unless you are one of their cronies, it should become pretty obvious early on that those people mentioned from AVS clearly have agendas that they try to push through. If they limit that agenda to subjective impressions - "This sub sounds so much better than that one to me" - that's fine, can't call on their opinions. But when they knowingly bring measurements into the equation, that's inexcusable, and it really shows how low they are willing to steep. If AVS wanted to better their forum, they would get rid of those people, not someone like Ilkka who challenges them by presenting the truth. The messed up part is that when Ilkka would present the truth, and the gig would be up, those threads would get locked and deleted so those jokers wouldn't permanently lose face. It's pretty sickening.

**Tom Vodhanel** · **06-11-06, 07:23 PM**

>>>I agree with Ilkka that when I see something posted that I feel is technically wrong it is almost irresistable to forego posting back. For example if a person posts a TrueRTA plot of a commercial subwoofer and says that it is smoothed to 1/6th octave when in fact it was only sampled at 1/6 octave, then I post and show a raw 1/24th octave sampled plot with a 1/6 octave smoothed result also showing. Other big controversies have been with 4 pi testing that was only 17ft in the air with correction factors to compensate that were only valid for a different sub -- and claiming that these tests were far superior to Ground Plane (quasi 2 pi).<<<

And coincidentally, the bogus data often seems to target SVS products. SVS doesn't play the "publicly stroke ego and get a favorable review" game that a couple of other OEMs embrace...so we lose all of these "unbias" listening tests. Then you usually have bogus data thrown in to try to give some illusion of objectivity to the whole corrupt process.

Tom V.
SVS

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