Sub reviewing/reviewer discussion

**SteveCallas** · **06-02-06, 12:31 PM**

Yeah, that's Ilkka. He's no longer allowed at AVS for telling things like they are...apparently that doesn't bode well with those who believe in magic. In his time there, he provided a wealth of measurement-related information. I haven't seen him around htguide in a while though, don't know what he's up to.

**Sonnie** · **06-02-06, 01:55 PM**

I spoke with him just a couple of weeks ago. Right after I learned he was run off from AVS. I couldn't figure out why he had not replied to my PM's to him at AVS. I finally got him through AVForums where all the sub reviews are that he does. I was shocked that AVS did what they did after I read his review that they canned him for. Total nonsense. If we can't have such reviews as these then we can't have reviews period and that would be ashamed. Okay... so only let the ones paying you have reviews of their products posted and then it can only be a positive review? lol (yes... that was meant to be sarcastic).

Anyway... is there anyway we could get him to start duplicating his reviews here at the Shack? Anyone know him well enough to encourage him to do so or know him well enough to allow someone here to copy those reviews to here? While I know him and have talked to him some, I don't know him as well as several others probably do and don't know that he would necessarily be that encouraged by me asking. IOW's I think we might need more than one person to ask him and encourage him to do so. It would merely be as simple and copying and pasting to a thread here... if need be we could set up a dedicated forum for it or go ahead and split up the Speakers forum and break out a forum for Subwoofers... then have the reviews posted there.

**brucek** · **06-02-06, 02:09 PM**

Quote:

He's no longer allowed at AVS for telling things like they are

Tell him he's welcome here to tell the truth......

**Exocer** · **06-02-06, 03:26 PM**

Quote:

brucek wrote:

Tell him he's welcome here to tell the truth......

I second that.
Edit: Reason being, I found his testing information VERY useful in deciding my first subwoofer purchase.

**Josuah** · **06-02-06, 03:44 PM**

I don't really understand what's going on. But he recently got blasted on AVTalk.co.uk also. I'm inclined to just not pay attention to what's going on and look at the measurement charts only.

**Sonnie** · **06-02-06, 04:13 PM**

Well... you can rest assured he will NOT get blasted here. If he was posting on AVS and AVTalk and no longer is allowed to do so... then he has an open invitation here.

Maybe if we all were to send him an email or PM him from AVForums he would oblige us with the reviews here.

**Josuah** · **06-02-06, 05:08 PM**

Well, he already posts his reviews on AV Forums. Doesn't make sense to create discussion threads and post the measurements in multiple forums. But he/you can always reference them here.

**Fincave** · **06-02-06, 06:07 PM**

Just had a look at the Finnish forum and the results of the shootout will be made available on Sunday, 22 subs were tested! I do not know Ilkka but sent him a pm asking if he would consider posting his reviews here, also sent a link to this thread, can only hope now that he will post here as well!

**Sonnie** · **06-03-06, 12:18 AM**

Quote:

Josuah wrote:

Well, he already posts his reviews on AV Forums. Doesn't make sense to create discussion threads and post the measurements in multiple forums. But he/you can always reference them here.

I think he was already posting in several forums though and now has been run off from a couple of them. The benefit of posting in a couple of forums is that some people get accustomed to one forum and would like to hang out at that particular forum. Not everyone is like me and willing to go forum hopping. Plus our forum is centered around subs... it's obviously not all we are about but it is what drives the forum growth more than anything else. We could probably eventually find someone to do the same as he is doing, but why... he does such a good job of it. The more places you post the review the more chances it has of being useful and seen.

**rcarlton** · **06-03-06, 10:45 AM**

I'm shocked he was run off from the AVS forum. Reading his reviews they appear well thought out and backed by data. What is wrong with that?

**SteveCallas** · **06-03-06, 03:14 PM**

Quote:

We could probably eventually find someone to do the same as he is doing

Ehhh, I don't know about that. He really knows his stuff and he has all the tools. Aside from Ed Mullen and the AVTalk crew, I don't know of too many others that (can?) do what he does.

Quote:

I'm shocked he was run off from the AVS forum. Reading his reviews they appear well thought out and backed by data. What is wrong with that?

I've noticed that the AVS forum has increasingly become less about science and more about "magic"

He did some measurements on intermodluation distortion because a few jokers were mooing that high excursion drivers aren't good because they produce too much of it. This type of distortion typically isn't measured, so he was presenting something somewhat new. From his measurements, he found that a popular sub that uses a high excursion driver had less intermodulation distortion than another sub with a low excursion driver when playing the same signal at the same output level. He also found that this type of distortion is basically proportional to THD, and thus there really isn't much need to measure for it discretely. The AVS mods felt this was a form of advertising and gave him the boot. He then posted the information again at HTF and htguide, and threads at AVS that had links to that information at the other forums were locked and deleted.

Apparently, showing that one sub measures better than another is not welcome anymore, I don't know, they weren't very clear on their explanation of what he did wrong. I guess we can call it AVM forum from now on.

**jmprader** · **06-03-06, 05:20 PM**

He is a very bright young man with a lot of tools and abilities. I do not think he was banned at various sites for his testing, rather he was banned for his behaviors with respect to other posters. Many people, including myself, PM'd him and asked him to back off or use a little less antagonistic approach. Didn't happen and his responses to PM's were anything but responsive to the issues. He clearly has good relationships with some people but not others.

**SteveCallas** · **06-03-06, 11:16 PM**

Well to put it bluntly, and this is straight shooting, his main antogonist is a jackass. The other, newer one is a complete joke. Both are liars. So when you are being pressed by a jackass and a joke who are lieing, when you are presenting the truth, it's hard to keep things civil.

The "official" reason he was banned was becuase David Bott felt his data on intermodulation distortion was advertising for SVS.

**Sonnie** · **06-04-06, 01:08 AM**

lol... well in a sense it is advertising for SVS... but if it's the truth then so be it. If we do a review of a component or speaker A, B, C and A comes out the winner, especially with measured data to back it up, then A is obviously going to get the benefit of free advertising. That doesn't mean everyone will necessarily buy A, but i can only imagine it will influence some buying decisions. You may as well ban all reviews if you are going to ban one.

**bobgpsr** · **06-04-06, 02:46 PM**

I would love to see Ilkka post his lastest test results here. IMO he really knows what he is doing and very much cares about doing accurate and fair subwoofer measurments

. His set of tests line up very well with Ed Mullen's. Wish they would reveal their reverse sweep technique with TrueRTA though

.

I've given up ever posting again in the AVS subwoofers forum. The science is gone

. Fortunately other AVS forums are not yet that bad.

Bob

**Tom Vodhanel** · **06-04-06, 10:05 PM**

Ilkka gets into problems becuase he doesn't realize how "political" some forums can be. If he disagrees with someone...he says what is on his mind. He doesn't hide behide subtle jabs, snide comments and half truths. He has a few "stalkers" who know how to "bait" him into breaking forum rules...and then the same folks will begin PM-ing all the forum mods/owners demanding they ban Ilkka immediately.

The nice thing about guys like Keith Yates, Ed, Ilkka, ect...they all use measurement methods anyone could duplicate for a few hundred dollars and a weekend of time. They (Ed and Illka) will even spend hours explaining each setting(and the reasons for them) used in their testing to anyone who asks. They have nothing to hide...so they make it as easy as possible for "peer review" of their data. Contrast that to others who always make sure there are impossible to duplicate variables in their data collection. They always make sure they have an excuse to give if some DOES try to duplicate their bogus testing..

Tom V.
SVS

**SteveCallas** · **06-05-06, 09:39 AM**

Quote:

Contrast that to others who always make sure there are impossible to duplicate variables in their data collection. They always make sure they have an excuse to give if some DOES try to duplicate their bogus testing..

And my personal pet peeve, they often use HUGE scales as an attempt to smoothen out various types of responses. Why do I need to see a 0-130db range when all of the data is within a 30db window?

**jmprader** · **06-05-06, 01:23 PM**

Quote:

Tom Vodhanel wrote:

Ilkka gets into problems becuase he doesn't realize how "political" some forums can be. If he disagrees with someone...he says what is on his mind. He doesn't hide behide subtle jabs, snide comments and half truths. He has a few "stalkers" who know how to "bait" him into breaking forum rules...and then the same folks will begin PM-ing all the forum mods/owners demanding they ban Ilkka immediately...

The nice thing about guys like Keith Yates, Ed, Ilkka, ect...they all use measurement methods anyone could duplicate for a few hundred dollars and a weekend of time. They (Ed and Illka) will even spend hours explaining each setting(and the reasons for them) used in their testing to anyone who asks. They have nothing to hide...so they make it as easy as possible for "peer review" of their data. Contrast that to others who always make sure there are impossible to duplicate variables in their data collection. They always make sure they have an excuse to give if some DOES try to duplicate their bogus testing..

Tom V.
SVS

I respectfully disagree with the analysis/who is to blame and the notion of a conspiracy. Granted, some posters seemed to troll around and pick fights with him. However, he very much engaged in similar behaviors. Chicken or egg? Noone who periodically got sucked into the exchanges is without guilt, either (I'll raise my hand as one of many sinners in this regard). Maybe we are all better off condemning such practices rather than trying to decide who to cast the first stones at here. If not, we’ll be headed down that same hopeless path again.

On the testing front, I certainly enjoy reading the results of consistently applied, objective and reasonably comprehensive testing regimens. Hence, I have enjoyed reading test reports done by Keith, Ed, Ilkka and others.

However, I also enjoy reading about subjective listening impressions and abx testing. Of course, these vary with the listener(s), source material, equipment and room. While most products that "bench test" well also tend to sound good to many listeners, there is still differentiation in the listening experience that may also represent listener predisposition toward certain types of design tradeoffs or factors that testing criteria just do not capture at this time. That’s part of what makes pursuit of the hobby enjoyable among friends with similar interests at home and on the net.

**Tom Vodhanel** · **06-05-06, 02:31 PM**

Hi Jm,

I guess after seeing bogus measurements of SVS products posted for the last couple of years...I've become a little jaded of the internet and of the human race in general. People who spend a lot of time measuring speakers/subs can spot faked data a mile away. And once you realize someone will stoop low enough to post fake data and then lie about it...how much credibility is their "subjective" opinion going to have? You may not feel this way, and that is cool. But the guys that do know faked data when they see it may disagree with you.

Tom V.
SVS

**jmprader** · **06-05-06, 04:43 PM**

Quote:

Tom Vodhanel wrote:

Hi Jm,

I guess after seeing bogus measurements of SVS products posted for the last couple of years...I've become a little jaded of the internet and of the human race in general. People who spend a lot of time measuring speakers/subs can spot faked data a mile away. And once you realize someone will stoop low enough to post fake data and then lie about it...how much credibility is their "subjective" opinion going to have? You may not feel this way, and that is cool. But the guys that do know faked data when they see it may disagree with you.

Tom V.
SVS

Tom,

Certainly those who post fake data and then lie to support the same (regardless of whose product is in the crosshairs), have no credibility with me. Period.

However, when someone, with no malice aforethought, engages in less than rigidly controlled testing procedures including blind listening tests, and then writes about it, I'm not going to castigate them. Their subjective opinions have value to me (and to others), particularly when viewed collectively with "the hard numbers" results from the Ed's, etal, the subjective opinions of other respectful posters, and, of course, what my ears tell me.

For those who prefer to place all/most weight on results of recognized testing criteria and ignore/discount subjective opinions, good on ya. Pocket books being equal, we still might end up owning the same consumer product, just via a different path of decision variables.

Are we on the same page on this sub-issue (pun optional), or do we need to peel the onion some more?

**Fincave** · **06-05-06, 05:34 PM**

Have chosen to delete my post. Read russ.will's comment about this becoming a AVS type thread and so have taken appropriate action IMO.

My apologies!

**russ.will** · **06-05-06, 06:11 PM**

Ye gods! If I thought merely mentioning Ilkka would start this off, I'd never have bothered. I thought that in the light of the 'PB10 v A Couple Of Unworthy Competitors' face-off thread it might be nice to offer up an objective review of some ot the USs and Europes favourites.

However posts 3 and onward don't even refer to the original subject matter and any interest it may hold. This thread is getting like AVS and that's why I didn't ever bother joining there.

Now go to your rooms and

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