Dynamical Systems

[lcaillo]

What ever became of the thinking on self-organization and emergence that was coming about in the 1990s with guys like Murray Gell-Mann, Doyne Farmer, Stuart Kauffman, J. A. Scott Kelso, etc. I have not heard much about it all in recent years but I have been out of academics for a while. There seemed to be some real implications for the behavioral sciences and much of the work was coming through guys with physics backgrounds.

[tweeksound]

Wow, right into the deep end. Great!

I am fighting a bout of food poisoning at the moment but I'd love to discuss some different origin theories when I'm well.

[drf]

I think it has just been accepted as an underlying aspect of natural science and physics. Although I am open to correction, it has probably not recieved much attention of late because as a theory; it offers no explanation for what it observes. Although I would admit it could be argued it has just been absorbed by a blanket evolution theory of natural sciences.

if that makes sense?


A discussion on origin theory could get ugly, however if the discussion is carried out in an inteligent and mature fashion it should be alright. Why not start a poll on it.

[lcaillo]

I suspect that you are correct. The kind of debate that it triggered in the area of motor behavior 10-20 years ago substantially changed the way many approached research. Still, many have never embraced the importance of the matter and continue to look for a little executive area of the brain that effects various behavior and control processes. Particularly interesting to me are the relations between the mechanics of movement and control systems, and as we used to try to teach coaches, "what you can get for free" from the system if you don't screw it up with intentional control. I have not followed the research in the area, but there was some great work being done by people like Turvey and Kelso a decade or two ago. I am sure that they influenced a lot of younger researchers and practitioners...

[drf]

I have been thinking about this a bit recently. I have resisted the urge to study the subject, and so offer this thought as it is:

The concept of self-organisation is of itslef a little benign in that it takes the outcome and applies a posible yet undisputable reasoning behind it. In the context of motor control or behavoural sciences I can't help but wonder how much influence self organisation can have when the whole concept seems to include many outside factors that can't easily be measured (especially in the rhealms of psychology).

Although having said all that I would like to know if it could be used as a basis for investigating conditions like ODD, ADD, ADHD.

[lcaillo]

Actually, as a theoretical construction, it is of limited usefulness, at least what I saw a decade or so ago. What it did was put much research and other theoretical perspectives in a context that substantially altered the direction of research and teaching in the field, at least in motor control. Prior to the introduction of these ideas, motor control was largely influenced by the Cartesian view of control as driven by executives in little black boxes in the brain. The tendency of cognitive phych folks to partition control into somewhat arbitrary control devices to explain their observations was unchallenged for many years. Guys like Kelso, began to point out that much of what we observe can be explained by the inherent dynamics of the system, and that without considering the actor as part of its environment, we really do not explain very much.

In the field of biomechanics as it applies to sports, which is where my experience lay, this shift in perspective became useful in bridging the gap in understanding between what practitioners instinctively know and do, and the theoretical, research, and pedagocical perspectives. For instance, in teaching biomechanics classes to Olympic coaches, we began to emphasize how the mechanics of the system can, when understood and taken advantage of, effect imrpovements with less conscious control. In other words, getting that cog-sci executive view of control out of the way and learning how the athlete interacting with the environment can get the most out of the system. Most elite coaches know this, while many lower level coaches waste great effort trying to implement ridiculous control schema that have little basis beyond one's epistemological perspective and experience.

What I was wondering in my original post was whether the effect has moved beyond a shift in perspective to actually influence more rigorously developed theory. The adaptive nature of human behavior requires a systems perspective, IMO, and the shift that I noted should have been productive, but I have not followed the research of the last decade.

[drf]

It is interesting but I can't help but think of ancient chinese/japanese martial arts when you refered to this control. They have been using meditation to free the mind of its concious control for many centuraries. Sorry I didn't fully grasp what you were allueding to in your first posts, the reference to self-organisation and emergence put me in the frame of mind of evolutionary and natural sciences.

I think the same train of thought could be applied to my earlier suggestion of research into ADD etc. Just like a coach tries to remove the concious retardation of motor control, one could try and remove the concious coping mechanism from a child with ADD and simply study what behaviours are inherent and what are learnt/conditioned. If there is current research in this field I also wouldn't mind hearing about it.

[lcaillo]

I am not up to date on research in the area but I think you can make a good case for a hybrid approach to the problem that takes much from a behaviorist perspective as well as cognitive psych. As a former teacher who dealt with a great deal of ADHD, I found that it is impossible to effectively deal with it without a very deliberate attention to the dynamics of the classroom and how the individual interacts with that environment. Subtle changes can have a big impact on the resulting behavior.

[Sonnie]

Since we changed this forum topic and description, I'm moving this to Off Topic chat.