Majority of Americans unhappy...

[Fincave]

I have been following this thread with some interest even though I am not American and actually do not follow politics very closely. I am South-African and live permanently in Finland (legally). I am just putting out a few thoughts with no intention of offending anyone.

Illegal immigrants

I realise that this can be a major cause for debate, how to deal with the problem and finding solutions will never be easy. People leave their home country for a reason, normally the aim would probably be to better their lot in life and to be able to provide for their family, admirable aims. Granted some immigrants will be out to try and take advantage of their new home country and will have criminal intent, though I believe the majority are just trying to leave behind chaos, violence, poverty etc. The choice to leave one's home country is not an easy one to make, trust me on this. Obviously America has something better to offer to the immigrants, otherwise they would not take the risks that they do in trying to get to America.

As I understand it quite a few immigrants do find work and therin lies a part of the problem and maybe possibly a solution? It would be intersting to know how many illegal immigrants are employed? Presumably they are doing menial work at very low wages, work that could and should be done by Americans but for as long as there exist unscrupulous employers who are out to maximise their profit people will be taken advantage of. Possible solutions would be: impose very heavy fines on any company found to be employing illegal immigrants, a slap on the wrist will not be enough. It will never completely get rid of th problem but once there is no employment it may well lessen the flood of illegal immigrants.

Enforce the immigration rules that are in place, there is no sense in making up laws if they are not enforced! If the laws are old and outdated or opposed by the majority then change them, democratically.

Minimum wage should be increased! A country is always going to need people to do menial jobs, the basic motivation for people to work is money, pay people a reasonable wage and even the menial work will become more attractive to citizens.

I googled wealth distribution in American and found some interesting reading, note I am not sure of the accuracy of the article but it can be found here. An excerpt from the article that really stood out to me is the following: [u][It's even more revealing to compare the actual rates of increase of the salaries of CEOs and ordinary workers; from 1990 to 2005, CEOs' pay increased almost 300% (adjusted for inflation), while production workers gained a scant 4.3%. The purchasing power of the federal minimum wage actually declined by 9.3%, when inflation is taken into account./U] That just seems plain wrong to me!

Here is another intersting link I found. Here is an intersting bit from the interview which I will leave for others to comment on: [u][MM: To what extent is inequality addressed through tax policy?
Wolff: One reason we have such high levels of inequality, compared to other advanced industrial countries, is because of our tax and, I would add, our social expenditure system. We have much lower taxes than almost every Western European country. And we have a less progressive tax system than almost every Western European country. As a result, the rich in this country manage to retain a much higher share of their income than they do in other countries, and this enables them to accumulate a much higher amount of wealth than the rich in other countries.

Certainly our tax system has helped to stimulate the rise of inequality in this country.

We have a much lower level of income support for poor families than do Western European countries or Canada. Social policy in Europe, Canada and Japan does a lot more to reduce economic disparities created by the marketplace than we do in this country. We have much higher poverty rates than do other advanced industrialized countries.

MM: Do you favor a wealth tax?
Wolff: I’ve proposed a separate tax on wealth, which actually exists in a dozen European countries. This has helped to lessen inequality in European countries. It is also, I think, a fairer tax. If you think about taxes that reflect a family’s ability to pay, a family’s ability to pay is a reflection of their income, but also of their wealth holdings. A broader kind of tax of this nature, would not only produce more tax revenue, which we desperately need, but it would be a fairer tax, and also help to reduce the level of inequality in this country.

MM: In broad outlines, how would you structure such a tax?
Wolff: I would model it after the Swiss system, which I think is a pretty fair system. It would be a progressive tax. In the United States, the first $250,000 of wealth would be exempt from the tax. That would exclude 80 percent of all families. The tax would increase at increments, starting out at .2 percent from about $250,000 to $500,000. The marginal rate would go up to .4 percent from $500,000 to $1 million, and then to .6 percent from a $1 million to $5 million, and then to .8 thereafter.

It would not be a very severe tax. In fact, the loading charges on most mutual funds are typically of the order of 1 or 2 percent. It would not be an onerous tax, but it could raise about $60 billion annually. Eighty percent of families would pay nothing, and 95 percent of families would pay less than $1,000. It would really only affect very rich families./U]

Death penalty

I used to be in favour of it but am opposed to it now. In my opinion it is not much more than state sanctioned murder and should not be seen as a viable alternative to imprisonment. No country has a perfect judicial system and to execute even one innocent person is a heinous act. I also do not understand how the mentally retarded can be executed. I would be interested to know what the average wealth of people who have been executed is? I somehow doubt that very many wealthy people have been executed from which one MAY be able to infer that money can buy justice?

The thought of locking somebody up in a small concrete room for the rest of their life repulses me, sorry! In certain countries prisoners do have too many rights and sentences are very lenient. Life imprisonment in Finland equates to about ten years which in my opinion is not enough of a deterrent. Finland probably does not have very many murders committed per capita and so it is a complex problem.

Somebody in this thread used the bible to come out in favour of the death penalty, with no offence intended, that is completely ridiculous! 'Thou shalt not kill' and 'thou shalt not murder' is an exercise in semantics and splitting hairs and to use that as proof that executing people should be allowed offends me. As I understand it the Bible was written a few thousand years ago, in languages that are no longer spoken today and has been translated literally hundreds of times. Words, phrases, sentences tend to lose some of their meaning with every translation and so to try and use something that was written a long time ago and make it applicable and relevant to the modern world really bugs me! Google 'bible and slavery' and see if it still appears wise to quote and interpret the bible literally. Time to move on , end of my little rant.

Health care

Am really not qualified to comment on the topic especially in relation to the US. Finland does have a national health scheme about which I am very happy, it works quite well for the most part and the option to use private health care does exist. I have used both the state health care and have also used private as employers here are required to provide health care to employees. The US obviously has a much larger population and thus a more complicated situation but I still feel that basic healt care should be readily available to every citizen.

Education I am surprised that this topic has not been covered very much in this thread. Education will never solve all problems but I do believe that an educated nation is better off. A good education should be a right for all citizens of a country, not only those with money, the exceptionally gifted and talented athletes. Tertiary education is essentially free in Finland, if a persons school results are good enough and you pass the entrance exams you will be admitted into university. You will be expected to pay for books and your own living expenses which is fair in my opinion. Students here also have the option of applying for a study loan which has a very low interest rate and normally only needs to be paid back once a person has graduated. It bugs me when the students here complain about there situation, needing to take a loan to live while they are getting a free education which will put them into a higher earning bracket once they have qualified. I suppose people are never satisfied.

Summary

Education.
Increase minimum wage.

The two listed above will not solve all and any problem but may help.

[Richard W. Haines]

Sadly, later Presidents from both parties have let us slip and slide backwards
to a large degree. McCain does not sound like Reagan but a lesser
version of his opponents. All I can do is hope for the best if he wins and
perhaps pressure can redirect him towards true conservatism rather than
the wishy washy type he seems to be pitching now which is still preferable
to Hillary and Obama's massive expansion of the welfare state.

[Richard W. Haines]

Fincave,

Thanks for your post. However, I belive in "American Exceptionalism". I don't want to emulate
any other nation, Western European or otherwise. None of them have our level of progress,
economic growth or freedom. Even with our Leftwing drag on the society and economy we still have more opportunity here than any where else. Of course
I have no problem making them our trading partners and allies but I wouldn't
use them as a guide for our society. We are different than any other place
on the planet. Everything about us is unique so foreign formulas wouldn't
apply nor work here. As I mentioned previously, just our demographics
of 300 million changes everything in terms of government services,
employment and so forth.

[Fincave]

Richard. W . Haines

The purpose of my post was only to put out a few ideas.

I realise that every country is unique, not only America. What works in one country is not always going to work in another. Every country has their own social make up and unique circumstances, there is however no harm done in observing other countries and maybe applying and modfiying their way of doing things. Are not most democratic countries run along similar principles and thus it would seem as though using other countries as a 'guide' is the norm.

Freedom of press, speech, movement, the right to vote etc are norms found in most countries.

[Fincave]

Richard W. Haines wrote:

For example you said 'raise the minimum wage'. The cost of living varies
depending on the area you live in and this is a huge continent. The minimum
wage must be indexed to the cost of living in each area. Otherwise it just
increases unemployment. That's
the kind of central planning that just doesn't work in America. Also, most
minimum wage jobs are not meant for people to live on.

Obviously the cost of living varies from area to area, would it not be possible/feasible to have a varying minimum wage in different areas?

It does seem a bit absurd to me that 'minumum wage jobs are not meant for people to live on'. If the article that I linked to is correct and a CEO's salary has gone up by 300 % and the average worker's salary has come down by 9.4% then there seems to be an imbalance. The money is there but the top dogs are getting greedier and the workers, who presumably work and are important are getting less. Surely everyone should benefit?

[Richard W. Haines]

Fincave,

But not economic policies.

[OvalNut]

thxgoon wrote:

If I'm understanding the views on this thread though, the right would support a 'class' society where on the left they are looking for socialism. Is it possible that it really takes both parties to make the US the greatest nation in the world? What do you all think?

I do agree that class separation does occur though it is not an intentionally structured, delineated construct such as you would find in a caste based society. Rather, there is a continuum of what I'll call 'success level'. Such success level is an ongoing outcome in a given person's life, as determined by a combination of abilities/opportunities/ambition.


Tim

[OvalNut]

Fincave wrote:

The thought of locking somebody up in a small concrete room for the rest of their life repulses me, sorry! In certain countries prisoners do have too many rights and sentences are very lenient. Life imprisonment in Finland equates to about ten years which in my opinion is not enough of a deterrent. Finland probably does not have very many murders committed per capita and so it is a complex problem.

Somebody in this thread used the bible to come out in favour of the death penalty, with no offence intended, that is completely ridiculous! 'Thou shalt not kill' and 'thou shalt not murder' is an exercise in semantics and splitting hairs and to use that as proof that executing people should be allowed offends me. As I understand it the Bible was written a few thousand years ago, in languages that are no longer spoken today and has been translated literally hundreds of times. Words, phrases, sentences tend to lose some of their meaning with every translation and so to try and use something that was written a long time ago and make it applicable and relevant to the modern world really bugs me! Google 'bible and slavery' and see if it still appears wise to quote and interpret the bible literally. Time to move on , end of my little rant.

I appreciate your comments, sincerely, and since this referenced a specific post I made, I'll reply in kind.

The thought of a murderer ending an inocent person's life, requiring that unfortunate victim's lifeless body to be put in a box and buried in the ground repulses me. Not sorry!

I do support capital punishment as an acceptable form of punishment, as allowed by the Biblical reasons quoted previously. I am also open to the alternative punishment of life in a concrete cell as a concession the to idea that a court of competent jurisdiction and a 12 person jury of one's peers could possibly make a mistake beyond a reasonable doubt.

Still, realizing that a mistake can be made, and that they are irretrievably tragic, capital punishment is a true deterrent. Much like a miltary planner will consider friendly fire casualities in the equation of waging war, an innocent life lost in the course of deterring countless other deaths by criminals who will now think otherwise about their potential actions and consequences is something that, frankly, I can sleep well with.


Tim

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

superchad wrote:

Eagle wrote:

"He started an illegal domestic wire tap program. He led us into a war that is still ongoing for all the wrong reasons. He condoned illegal abuse at Gitmo. He has had several of his hand picked associates come under quite a list of legal issues and immoral ones all the while touting how americans 'should' act, behave and believe. He froze during the largest national crisis in our country's history.
His actions post Katrina and to this day are dispicable.
That is just a little bit, but as I thought I am ready to pop some blood vessels, so for my sake I'll stop"

Ok first, If your not breaking any laws why do you care who listens? Ofcourse this is only applied to overseas calls but liberals forget that.

Second, The war had to be fought, we were not lied to as even Clintion thought the intell was accurate so we basically brought the fight to them and like rats to cheese they came out of hiding so we could send them to meet some virgins.

Third, the is no illegal abuse as these criminals are part of no organized army from a formal nation so in short the Geneva Convention and other rules dont not apply to these killers and thugs.

Fourth, hmmmm Bill and Hillary, were involved in White Water, probably killed Vince Foster, Janet Reno botched Waco, he pardoned many criminals for financial gain and the Clintons still thumb their noses at the USA going as far as having a loyal friend sneak documents about 9/11 out of the National Archives in his underwear. And there is the whole scandal we all know that had the public and his administration so distracted nobody realized radicals were learning to fly Jumbo Jets but had no desire for lessons on how to land them.

Fifth, He frooze for what 8 seconds while in a classroom full of children, I froze for probably an hour staring at the TV in horror and disbelief so 8 seconds sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Sixth, Katrina was a shame but Mayor Ray Negin refussed to head warnings, and turned early help away, from Bush and the Gov Kathleen Blanco and I dare you to try to dream up what Al Gore may have done in same situation...I can see it now "My fellow Americans, we have decided to leave the power off because its good for the planet..this event shows you can with a bit of effort cut back on wasteful energy used in daily life to save our planet from my invented cause "Global Warming", sure history shows us the world heats and cools in extended cycles but I dont care this is real...oh yeah I also invented the internet."

Stop back when your head feels better....................cheers

1. He abused my rights, that bothers me.
2. His handling of the war is poor at best.
3. So if an outfit like Blackwater, hired by the republicans, does illegal acts that is not their fault?
4. Huh?
5. Reasonable to you is not to me. You are not in charge of the country he is, therefor there are different levels of expectations.
6. How can you even begin to defend Bush or Homeland Security? Disgusting.

There, I feel better now.

[Zerock]

Man this thread have sure degraded from the first few pages.

A couple of years ago I made a "Support the troops" thread in the off topic section of an automobile forum. No political references what so ever, just asking folks to appreciate the volunteers who are currently serving, and have served in the past.

Man the responses! As if I were a bloodthirsty war monger, my positive note was drowned out by angry conspiracy theories while every negative aspect about the U.S. were dragged out and showcased.

I'll have to agree with the first post of this very long thread.
This is a beautiful, wonderful country- full of opportunity for those who seek opportunity.

Sure, we have a lot of problems to work through. Major ones. Which country doesn't?
I don't see where this bickering can end.

-Steve

[thxgoon]

[Sonnie]

Zerock wrote:

Man this thread have sure degraded from the first few pages.

A couple of years ago I made a "Support the troops" thread in the off topic section of an automobile forum. No political references what so ever, just asking folks to appreciate the volunteers who are currently serving, and have served in the past.

Man the responses! As if I were a bloodthirsty war monger, my positive note was drowned out by angry conspiracy theories while every negative aspect about the U.S. were dragged out and showcased.

I'll have to agree with the first post of this very long thread.
This is a beautiful, wonderful country- full of opportunity for those who seek opportunity.

Sure, we have a lot of problems to work through. Major ones. Which country doesn't?
I don't see where this bickering can end.

-Steve

Excellent observation Steve...

Do we need to close this thread?

[scott]

No.........Don't close it. I'll conform. I'll be a good little soldier. I'll keep my opinions to myself and I won't consider anyone else's opinions. I'LL BE GOOD!

How's that for childish.

[OvalNut]

I have disagreed with some posters here, and I applaud everyone for keeping it essentially civil.

Candor and good will have been largely present. Thank you all.


Tim

[Sonnie]

scott wrote:

No.........Don't close it. I'll conform. I'll be a good little soldier. I'll keep my opinions to myself and I won't consider anyone else's opinions. I'LL BE GOOD!

How's that for childish.

My point is... let us be sure to keep it civil and stay on topic.

Opinions are very welcomed as long as they are on topic and conform to our forum rules.

[Richard W. Haines]

I think we should close the thread. Everyone is repeating themselves
including me and no one is going to change their mind on who they're
voting for.

[Fincave]

Richard.W.Haines

Regarding my second post as to the salary increases of CEOs I did use the word IF and also mentioned that I was UNSURE of the accuracy of the article, bearing that in mind, IF the article is correct then the situation seems to be unfair to say the least. A stockholder will be happy as long as his or her wealth increases, I do not think they would be terribly bothered by what the CEO is getting paid and would probably be less concerned as to what the guy in the factory making the product is getting paid.

I will confess to not knowing how many businesses there are in America, or any given country for that matter. ( sorry but sarcasm sometimes gets the better of me, no offense meant)

A programmer or developer or whoever is obviously entitled to his profits and money, surely though the person who is actually making the goods is also entitled to earn a living, provide for their family? Further education and training should assist a person to have a higher standard of living however, not every person is cut out to be a manager or even has the intelligence for further education, surely that does not mean that they need to live below the bread line?

OvalNut,

I hope you did not misunderstand me. I do not have sympathy for people who commit murder. I do feel that capital punishment is 'state sanctioned murder' and do not agree with it. I do respect your right to disagree with me. I will say again that I particularly dislike it when someone quotes from the bible to back up a personal belief for the reasons I have already stated. One can use the bible to condone or condemn various things, it just depends on how you interpret it and form what book you choose to quote.

I also do not see how capital punishment is actually working as a detterent, murder is rife in our society wether they are living in a country with or without capital punishment.


Sonnie,

I would leave the thread open as i feel it is generating interesting and stimulating debate.


Richard.W.Haines

I do agree with you on something. I do not think that anybody will change their beliefs based on this thread, it is however interesting to hear other people's point of view on various topics.



Some fuel for the fire can be found here, Freedom in the world, 2007 is an assesment of civil liberties and political rights around the world.

Corruption Index, the name kind of speaks for itself.

Please note, I am unsure as to the accuracy of the above links, but I did find it interesting reading. I live in Finland by the way.