The search for a craft smart metallic silver substitute for use in the UK and Europe.

**custard** · **04-15-09, 08:05 AM**

last week i tested ardenbrite water based silver paint that is available in the UK.
the initial results were promising in that it was providing a mix which was close to Harpmaker's C&S in lightness.
after painting a test panel i found that i could sometimes detect the odd bright fleck in white scenes from 2 metres away so i have stopped any further testing with this for now.

my thoughts have now turned to other sources and there are two which i hope to order very soon.

http://www.craftsuperstore.co.uk/Art...056/p3404.aspx - out of stock at the moment

http://www.millers-art.co.uk/acatalo...Paint_525.html - metallic silver is available in the second drop down list

**custard** · **04-17-09, 12:56 PM**

i received 3 silver paints today:

from left to right

inscribe 59ml acrylic silver
reeves acrylic silver 75ml
reeves redimix 500ml silver
ardenbrite silver - already tested

interestingly the inscribe silver paint is actually made by Palmer paints in US.

**custard** · **04-18-09, 11:11 AM**

i carried out some small tests today.

the reeves acrylic paint when mixed with white paint in a 1:4 ratio stays fairly light but does not show much reflective particles on the surface.

the reeves reidimix i have not tested yet.

the inscribe palmers paint is the one that has me perked up.
it seeems to have a very high concentration of reflective particles.

at first i decided to test 1:2, 1:3 and 1:4 with white paint.
after the first mix of 1:4 i have realised that the palmer silver was powerful in that it darkened the mix quite considerably - something along the lines of N5! i can also see alot of reflective particles.

after graduallly increasing the ratio of white to try and lighten the mixture up i have arrived at 20 parts white to 1 part silver - 20:1. i have not taken any measurements yet but it seems it is about N8.5 and to my surprise i can still see a fair amount of reflective particles.

i'll take some spectro measurements tomorrow aswell as trying some even lower concentrations of palmers silver.

**Harpmaker** · **04-18-09, 12:33 PM**

That Inscribe silver sounds very interesting Custy. I found a source for it on-line here in the U.S. under the name Palmer Acrylic.

Addendum:

Searching for "Palmer prism" lead me to Dick Blick!

**custard** · **04-18-09, 01:12 PM**

well the place that i bought it from advertised it as inscribe silver:
http://www.fredaldous.co.uk/product_372360015.htm
but the bottle actually says palmer prism on it as you can see in the photo. harp - you should be able to pick up the exact bottle.

as we have found that reflective particles like to sink in thick samples i have made sure to make two samples. one painted thinly to check for reflective particles and one thicker sample to spectro when it has cured abit.

**custard** · **04-18-09, 04:50 PM**

looks like the inscribe paint is just a rebranded product made originally by palmers.

**custard** · **04-19-09, 09:14 AM**

i mixed up the palmers silver with white paint (dulux lumitec absolute white) in 1:30 ratio!!

here is a zoomed flash image of the sample on the left and BW 4:1 on the right

as you can see there are not as much reflective particles in comparison to BW.

the mix will also need some color correction.
the sample above was color corrected somewhat to the neutral fringe at about N8.7.

i'm thinking that after the reflective particles are increased (revert to 20:1) and color correction is carried out we might just touch N8.5.

i spectroed the 4:1 sample from yesterday and it is above N7 - my eyelumenescope was deceiving me

**Harpmaker** · **04-19-09, 10:04 AM**

While the Palmer (or Inscribe) silver looks like it has potential as a paint additive for a DIY screen, it seems clear that it isn't a direct replacement for CSMS to make C&S with existing formulae; it darkens too much, is too reflective in C&S ratios and needs color-correction for a neutral color.

Good find though!

**custard** · **04-19-09, 12:04 PM**

too true Harp! that CSMS is truly a unique find. i'll keep looking.

the palmers paint may still be useful in that we could still acheive N8.5. we only have N7.5 in the UK at the moment.

would you mind picking some up from dick blick?

**Harpmaker** · **04-19-09, 05:17 PM**

Quote:

custard wrote:

too true Harp! that CSMS is truly a unique find. i'll keep looking.

I had no idea how unique it was.

Quote:

the palmers paint may still be useful in that we could still acheive N8.5. we only have N7.5 in the UK at the moment.

would you mind picking some up from dick blick?

No problem, it's on the list.

**custard** · **04-20-09, 03:38 AM**

as the palmers paint is not really a substitute for CSMS i think i will post any further research on it in a new thread.

i'm running out of avenues to test in finding the substitute.
the last one my list to test is Anitas silver which i linked to in the first post. i will have this ordered later today.

**Harpmaker** · **07-28-09, 06:50 PM**

It's time to update this thread.

The Palmer silver is indeed an interesting metallic paint; from the way it darkens a mix there might even be some aluminum in it.

I'll start checking this out after I find my polarizing filters... they gotta be around here somewhere... ; but it won't do to make C&S.

This is the appropriate thread for this info so I'll put it here instead of the main C&S thread in the Screens forum. The paint that is showing the most potential as a C&S substitute is Liquitex BASICS VALUE Silver. I have done small samples of it mixed in Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel white paint (called VUPE for short) and the next step is to make an actual test panel out of it.

Liquitex BASICS VALUE Silver (called LBVS for short) isn't a direct replacement for Craft Smart Metallic Silver since they are two very different paints. For example, to get close to a N9 mix the ratio of base paint to silver must go up to 1:1 (half base and half silver); and it is still a bit lighter than C&S. At this concentration I'm also a bit concerned about hot-spotting, but it could be okay. Also, I was surprised to find that the above mix is very close to meeting our exacting neutrality specifications without any color-correction at all; as such, it should work well mixed in Behr UPW in base #1850 and perhaps other Ultra White paints. A very great plus is that the Liquitex brand is available just about world-wide.

**michelspascie** · **07-29-09, 12:58 AM**

WOW great info, Thank a lot.

I will try it this week.
Thank again.

**Harpmaker** · **07-29-09, 09:41 AM**

Quote:

michelspascie wrote:

WOW great info, Thank a lot.

I will try it this week.
Thank again.

You are welcome Mike, but I need to stress that this is still a mix in development and it is not a recommended mix. It has not been proven to work yet.

**custard** · **07-29-09, 04:31 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Liquitex BASICS VALUE Silver (called LBVS for short) isn't a direct replacement for Craft Smart Metallic Silver since they are two very different paints. For example, to get close to a N9 mix the ratio of base paint to silver must go up to 1:1 (half base and half silver); and it is still a bit lighter than C&S. At this concentration I'm also a bit concerned about hot-spotting, but it could be okay. Also, I was surprised to find that the above mix is very close to meeting our exacting neutrality specifications without any color-correction at all; as such, it should work well mixed in Behr UPW in base #1850 and perhaps other Ultra White paints. A very great plus is that the Liquitex brand is available just about world-wide.

slap me on the wrist! i still have not ordered the LBVS.
i will sort it tomorrow...

**michelspascie** · **07-29-09, 11:23 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

You are welcome Mike, but I need to stress that this is still a mix in development and it is not a recommended mix. It has not been proven to work yet.

I purchased 3 X 118ml. of "Liquitex Basics acrylic color SILVER" and one small can of "Behr UPW 1850" today and painted 2 coats of Kizt2. I will apply the 1:1 mix tomorrow. Will see tomorrow???

**Harpmaker** · **07-30-09, 01:51 AM**

Wow, I didn't think anyone would start to mix this so soon!

I know I sound like a broken record, but I feel I still need to stress that any and all mixes using LBVS are experimental and good results can't be guaranteed.

Since there is so much interest in this, I will say that the 1:1 (1 part white base:1 part LBVS) mix I tested came within the skin of it's teeth of being neutral and is only a small fraction less neutral than the original C&S.

The test mix of 2:1 (2 parts white paint:1 part LBVS) was neutral and would be considered a true white screen at N9.4, all this while still containing 33.333% silver mica-based paint.

The 4 fl.oz. tube of LBVS will look like this: (the photo is of 'Raw Umber', not 'Silver')

If you are planning on making enough mix to paint a full-size screen it might be cheaper to by it in larger containers such as the 8 fl.oz. jar:

Being an artist paint, Liquitex can be quite expensive if you must pay retail for it, I would recommend looking for discount sources for it. In the U.S. Dick Blick in one source that saves you around 50% over retail. http://www.dickblick.com/products/li...ics-8-oz-jars/

Good Luck to those experimenting along with us!

**custard** · **07-30-09, 01:41 PM**

harp - while i have been looking at ordering the liquitex silver and i have come across a matte version.
did you get any testing done of that one?

http://www.misterart.com/g7793/Liqui...lic-Colors.htm
http://www.greatart.co.uk/LIQUITEXBA...lic-paints.htm
i'll pick some of that up aswell if it has yet to be tested.

**Harpmaker** · **07-30-09, 02:25 PM**

Quote:

custard wrote:

harp - while i have been looking at ordering the liquitex silver and i have come across a matte version.
did you get any testing done of that one?

i'll pick some of that up aswell if it has yet to be tested.

I did get some, but have yet to try it in a mix. I don't see that much difference between it and the regular BASICS silver undiluted.

The thing with the BASICS MATT paints is that they are only available in the 75 ml and 200 ml tubes, and they cost more than the regular BASICS paints.

I'll give a breakdown of the costs involved for making a screen mix; for ease in figuring I'll assume a user is going to use the 1:1 ratio to get a mix about N9, this would make 32 fl.oz. of mix which is enough to paint a 103 inch diagonal 16:9 screen. Add whatever a pint of white paint would cost you to the figures below.

For a 1:1 mix using 16 fl.oz. of base one would have to add 16 fl.oz. of LBVS.
16 fl.oz. = 2 8 fl.oz. jars of LBVS @ $9.80 each retail = $19.60 ($9.58 from dickblick)

Using the MATT silver it would be like this:
16 fl.oz. = 4 4 fl.oz. (200 ml) tubes MATT silver @ $8.77 each retail = $$35.08 ($17.96 from dickblick)

On top of the additional cost of the MATT silver, it only comes in the squeeze tubes which look to be difficult to get all the paint out of. The jars look to be straight-sided so it should be simple to get all the paint out of them.

Something I forgot to mention before is that the LBVS, while considered a "soft body" paint, is still thicker than regular latex house paint and a 1:1 mix of this with white latex paint should be thinned with water before rolling or spraying. I found that I had to thin the mix with 50% water to spray well through my HVLP gun. I would guess that it should be diluted with about 20% water to roll.

**custard** · **07-30-09, 02:54 PM**

i was hoping that the matt version had less sheen, but as that does not seem to be the case i wont bother picking any up.

**michelspascie** · **07-30-09, 11:25 PM**

I just applied my first coat of 1:1 LBVS + Behr 1850 and it is surprisingly white. Will see final result tomorrow!!!

**Harpmaker** · **07-31-09, 02:01 PM**

Quote:

michelspascie wrote:

I just applied my first coat of 1:1 LBVS + Behr 1850 and it is surprisingly white. Will see final result tomorrow!!!

Yes, at N9 C&S is a very light gray mix. My test batch of the Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel/LBVS 1:1 mix (which should be the same as using Behr #1850) was even a little lighter at N9.2.

C&S mixes have always been about having a bright screen while giving a little help with contrast for PJ's that need that; they have never been about helping with ambient light problems - they just aren't dark enough for that.

**Stropdas** · **09-04-09, 10:38 AM**

Would it help to use a neutral light gray base instead of white to combine with LBVS to make the screen a little darker and still have good whites?

**Harpmaker** · **09-04-09, 08:58 PM**

Quote:

Stropdas wrote:

Would it help to use a neutral light gray base instead of white to combine with LBVS to make the screen a little darker and still have good whites?

Hi Bram!

Welcome to the Shack!

In theory, yes, adding a neutral gray paint should make the mix darker while keeping the mix neutral. A neutral added to a neutral produces a neutral. What is unknown is how it affects the reflectiveness of the mix. However; starting with a neutral gray base to make C&S wouldn't work since the metallic silver paints used depend on the white paint NOT being neutral (they are a bit "warm" in color) to counteract the slight blue color of the silver paints.

C&S mixes made with Craft Smart Metallic Silver can have a fair amount of gray paint added and still produce a mix with screen gain above that color of gray paint alone, but I don't know how the Liquitex BASICS VALUE Silver will react to such dilution.

As I have said in several other posts I've been so busy this summer I haven't had a chance to properly test mixes like Cream&Sugar International. I hope that will change shortly.

If they prove out, I also hope to have two new mixes based on these experiments; one that uses CSMS for North America and one using LBVS for the rest of the world.

All these mixes are still very much in the testing phase, that is why they are being discussed here in the Developers forum instead of the main Screens forum.

**Stropdas** · **09-05-09, 09:07 AM**

Hi Don,

You are so right. First is to make an European C&S with the right white. For the mix with LBVS you used
Behr UPW (249 249 245) . For C&S Luminous White (247 247 242) is used. For NCS Colors there's "S 0300-N" (245.82 244.88 241.07). A little more grayish overall with a little more red

For Scorpion N8.0 There's a 50:50 BW and C&S. For a Scorpion N8.5 there's a different mix with only 17% BW and more white than normal C&S. With BW mixed with too much white the effect of the aluminium particles is fast decreasing, does the 17% BW with just 3,5% of the total mix being AAA much more than a neutral gray of N7.5 with bringing reflectiveness on the wall? Otherwise your suggestion of adding gray paint looks a lot easier and cheaper. A darker gray (almost black 10 10 10) would darken C&S more than a lighter gray with less diluting i presume

I'm enthusiastic about DIY-paint. Reading a few hours a day last week. I used to project to a (sort of) white wall with structure but now it's time for a real screen. Just letting my thoughts free here

Advertisement