Further Investigations Part IV

**mechman** · **07-13-09, 10:59 PM**

This thread will encompass getting Black widow darker. I think it will be fairly easy to achieve and I thought I'd start tonight. But I've got an early day tomorrow so I'm gonna hit the sack early.

We're gonna look for something that's gonna be as dark as a Firehawk - something in the N6-6.5 range. And then a N7 to fill the gap between the current Black Widow and this darker one.

Added to this I'm also going to mix up the latest Silver Fire. This is the one that utilizes Liquitex Basics paint - I think the popsicle stick paint comments must've struck a nerve somewhere.

I've already mixed up the color component of this mix and I should have a spectro reading of that tomorrow.

A brief recap of the previous Silver Fire - My version as well as two completely independent versions all produced the same spectral curve. Which wasn't good at all. One of those versions was harpmaker's. This was previous to him becoming a moderator here and previous to him owning a spectro. I believe his spectro confirmed my reading but I cannot recall for sure at the moment. Harp?

I plan on getting started fully on Wednesday and hope to have something close to being done by the time I leave for the cabin on Thursday. This being the darker Black Widow versions. I should have the SF done tomorrow with a spectro reading on Wednesday. For now I just have the 'color component' finished.

**Harpmaker** · **07-13-09, 11:46 PM**

Yeah mech, with some of the new PJ's hitting the 5000 Lumen mark a darker BW would be a good thing to have ready.

Yep, I got essentially the same spectro reading from my Silver Fire screen as you did.

I will be testing the new formula for SF as well. I mixed the 'color component' up some time ago, but have yet found time to make the total mix. Something I can't really explain is that the new SF CC mix separates! A lot of the green color comes to the top of the container after setting for a day or two! I made sure it was totally shook up and mixed as well as possible short of using a commercial paint shaker (there isn't enough paint volume to use a squirrel cage mixing attachment).

Yeah, I think you guys struck a number of nerves with the Mudd mixes (the designers name not mine). PB finally did some color correction on SF. We'll see how close to neutral he got.

**mechman** · **07-14-09, 07:59 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

I will be testing the new formula for SF as well. I mixed the 'color component' up some time ago, but have yet found time to make the total mix. Something I can't really explain is that the new SF CC mix separates! A lot of the green color comes to the top of the container after setting for a day or two! I made sure it was totally shook up and mixed as well as possible short of using a commercial paint shaker (there isn't enough paint volume to use a squirrel cage mixing attachment).

Yeah, I think you guys struck a number of nerves with the Mudd mixes (the designers name not mine). PB finally did some color correction on SF. We'll see how close to neutral he got.

I'll check today and tomorrow on the separating. As for the color correcting, it still seems they are a bit off. I highly doubt the base is going to bring it into neutral. I'm not going to post RGB numbers, I'll just post spectrums. And those will come later today.

Also, throw the Harp's black recipe in here.

**mechman** · **07-14-09, 08:29 AM**

In case you're wondering what the new CalMAN spectrum looks like:

I am not a happy camper at the moment. And I cannot find an old copy of CalMAN either.

Plus, in the old version you could copy and paste the chart. Now, I have no idea what the chart is or how to modify it.

I've got some messages over at their forum regarding this. Derek and company have been very helpful in the past. I hope it continues. And I think they were even showing off the old spectrum chart at avs as what a person could use for color measures.

Here's what that chart should look like:

I can get the rest of data fields on there, including the CIE plot. But no spectrum...

**Harpmaker** · **07-14-09, 10:15 AM**

I like the 0-100 Y-axis, but what's up with the 1-4 X-axis on the Spectrum? I hope you can get it straightened out.

Here is the spectro data on Harp's Black, now all I gotta do is find the formula.

L*ab 16.22 0.08 0.11

RGB 40 40 40

OK, got it!

Craft Smart Black/Premiere Mars Black 1:1. Premiere is a brand name and it has an accent mark.

**mechman** · **07-14-09, 12:33 PM**

Danke Harp. Looks like I may not need it though since your 2:1 was in need of a blue touch.

**Harpmaker** · **07-14-09, 05:53 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Danke Harp. Looks like I may not need it though since your 2:1 was in need of a blue touch.

Uhhhh... no, I don't think so.

I assume your talking about the BB/AAA-F 2:1 mix. I'll give the data again:
L*ab 74.03 -0.38 -1.15

RGB 180 182 184

Color Temp 6694.8

The extra aluminum was making the mix begin to push blue while not darkening it all that much.

**mechman** · **07-14-09, 11:12 PM**

Definitely misunderstood you and skipped the data. Sounds like I could use some SF color component?!?!?

**Harpmaker** · **07-15-09, 10:11 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Definitely misunderstood you and skipped the data. Sounds like I could use some SF color component?!?!?

I think there are easier, cheaper and more reliable ways to do it. Also, you need to specify the 'new' SF CC, not the old one!

**mechman** · **08-04-09, 09:23 AM**

In case anyone's wondering why we don't advocate 2:1 or 3:1 Black Widows:

I'm going to be getting these two neutral today. Extra credit for anyone who can tell me what to add to the base.

**Harpmaker** · **08-04-09, 05:27 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

In case anyone's wondering why we don't advocate 2:1 or 3:1 Black Widows:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...rals/BW2-1.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...rals/BW3-1.jpg

I'm going to be getting these two neutral today. Extra credit for anyone who can tell me what to add to the base.

I would try adding Burnt Sienna.

Did you try simply adding black to darken? While still a bit blue, Ivory Black is not as blue as Mars Black.
Do you think that extra AAA is required for the darker mixes?

**mechman** · **08-05-09, 11:38 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

I would try adding Burnt Sienna.

Did you try simply adding black to darken? While still a bit blue, Ivory Black is not as blue as Mars Black.
Do you think that extra AAA is required for the darker mixes?

Believe or not I did it without adding or mixing anything.

My 3:1 base ended up major league screwed up. I think it's because I had a new person at the paint desk at Lowes. So I only picked up the 2:1 base at Lowes. I went to Home Depot and bought the 3:1 base. I don't know what it is about Behr paint, but I always have trouble with it. The tinted colors never act like I expect them to. My 4850 (exterior paint) Black Widow test did the same thing. The tint was good for Bermuda Beige and yet the screen mix pushed red.

The bases for these were:

2:1 RGB 211 191 183 which was off a tiny bit from what I was shooting for 207 190 181. More than likely the cause of the very slight red push.

3:1 RGB 213 189 177 - I was shooting for 215 192 178. Pretty close so either Behr in my neck of the woods stinks or something was wrong with my formula. I'm going with my formula.

I'm going to try and dial in the 2:1 now to an acceptable N7 and N6.5 today. My window of opportunity is the next 3 days and I have other things going on as well. Hopefully I can dial it in today and get a good base match tonight for spraying tomorrow afternoon.

**mechman** · **08-05-09, 11:42 AM**

Also, a brief explanation. I'm going with the 2:1 because, beleive it or not, I don't recall ever testing AAA in either 3:1 or 2:1 ratios. And Black Widow 4:1 is identical to a Grayhawk's performance so far. I'm thinking that we can darken the mix some - down to the N6.5 maybe even N6.5 range - and try to match the performance of a Firehawk. And the theory in my head requires more aluminum. Thus the 2:1 and 3:1 tangent I'm on.

Time to head out to the bunker...

**custard** · **08-05-09, 05:25 PM**

i dont whether you recall the testing we carried out for UKBW?
just thought i would bring up one of those old testing results mixed up using a custom base made by crownpaints in the UK. it may help point you to the appropriate RGB/Lab values.

This is the Crown Match.

The Crown mixed with AAA 3:1

P.S. the paints readings are on the LHS

**mechman** · **08-05-09, 06:44 PM**

I forgot about that custy.

I wonder why your crown base works for both 4:1 and 3:1?

Bermuda Beige didn't.

I think I have it finished up. Just waiting for the samples to dry. If this doesn't work out it may be weeks before I actual finish. I should quit trying to hurry anyways. Time is limited for me though.

**Harpmaker** · **08-05-09, 07:29 PM**

I just found a SRC I did of Bermuda beige/AAA-F 2:1 about 1 1/2 years ago.

**mechman** · **08-05-09, 09:09 PM**

Well I think I'm there. Just need to wait to let it cure over night.

Things are looking good for a panel.

FYI - I used EasyRGB to come up with my base paint. It was off a little but that was pretty impressive crunching the numbers and getting it to work. I think if I had used the proper color space in BabelColor originally, it may have been dead on to start with.

There is a Sikkens color that is a dead match too. However, I expect it to change overnight. Outside of that Sikkens color, there is only one other that could be considered 'close'. And that would be a True Value color. I'm not happy about that one though because the RGBs fall the wrong way. This one may have to be a Lowe's formula mix.

**mechman** · **08-06-09, 11:46 AM**

The numbers are shaping up well.

L*a*b* 69.2 0.59 -0.17
RGB 170 169 169

More in a bit...

**mechman** · **08-06-09, 10:51 PM**

Would this make a bad screen? I want input on this!!

I'm not happy about the y value. And I wasn't thrilled with the RGB - 173 170 173. But the color temp comes in at 6558.6. Well within our specs. Regardless, I'm hoping it tames itself by tomorrow morning. Plus it's better than most.

This is what the graphs look like on my original base which I adjusted slightly my self to bring the 2:1 mix in neutral:

Curve looks a lot better, numbers are much better... yet it's 55 on the low side for D65. The other is 55 high. RGB of 168 166 167.

My adjusted base has an RGB of 188 178 175. This off the shelf color measures at 187 177 178 and it should be. according to EasyRGB, 190 179 178.

I'm thinking it will even out by tomorrow morning. It's only been 7.5 hours.

**Harpmaker** · **08-07-09, 07:02 AM**

I have to say that I really don't like the spectrum function in CalMan; the charts are difficult to compare one to another because the vertical graduations are different between graphs. I much prefer charts with constant graduations.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say. My guess is that this mix would work well for a screen. Remember, the neutral criteria that Bill and Mark developed are very stringent and Mark thought they could be relaxed a bit without problems.

The main reason we try to get as close to perfectly neutral when developing these mixes is to help ensure a good neutral screen even if the paint isn't quite made to the correct color either by the end-user or the paint store. If you remember, I had "Winter Mist" made up by both True Value and Lowe's, and both of them differed significantly from the RGB values in the EasyRGB database.

Could you email or PM me the actual spectro reflectance data? I would like to run that through my SRC spreadsheet program.

**mechman** · **08-07-09, 11:08 AM**

I'm sending the data to you as well.

**mechman** · **08-07-09, 11:19 AM**

Here's how it looked today in CalMAN

Didn't move much at all. 173 170 173 and still only 55 off from D65. I'm spraying it.

**mechman** · **08-07-09, 09:17 PM**

This panel is next on my list tonight.

And the Scorpion N8 will have to wait for another day. I'm gonna call it quits for the day after this.

**mechman** · **08-18-09, 11:31 AM**

Spectro of the panel:

Reflection readings coming soon.

**mechman** · **09-01-09, 08:21 PM**

The 2:1 Black Widow experiment is considered a failure in my book. It works and it's neutral. But there's too much graininess associated with the extra particles. When I get more time I'm going to go back and look into the 3:1 again.

If you want to see what I'm talking about, go look at the silver fire pictures. They look very similar in terms of graininess. The big difference between the two was that the 2:1 didn't lose it's brightness as quickly as silver fire did off axis.

This week will be a Scorpion N8 panel kind of week. Expect some calibration readings from it Saturday hopefully.

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