Black Widow Ultra™ Development - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #31 of 235 Old 09-06-13, 11:06 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
lgreis wrote: View Post
I was thinking about one thing, i already try AAA and i saw some shimering because of the aluminium reflective particles of the paint and its very anoying. I read that the lumitec tecnology used in the Dulux paints uses titanium dioxide because its very reflective and thats why its white paint has almoust 1.1/1.2 gain. The titanium dioxide is a white pigment. Do you think its possible of ading the titanium dioxide white pigment to a neutral grey or even Black paint in a quantity that makes a grey mix with a good gain and no shimering? The dulux titanium white is very bright and as no shimering at all
Did you mix your AAA into the base paint in a 4:1 ratio (4 parts base to 1 part AAA)? Did you use the Fine grade of AAA?

Titanium Dioxide is the basic white pigment for white paints in most areas, and has been for decades. Before TiO2 was used they used to use a very white salt of Lead, but it was discovered that when paint based on the Lead salt was eaten by children it could cause brain damage thus it was dropped for TiO2,

They are unclear as to what exactly creates the LumiTec advantage. It could be simply using more TiO2 than they do in their regular paints, or it could be that the TiO2 is somehow made more reflective by altering the shape of the crystals.

Pure regular TiO2 powder does NOT have a gain over 1.0. The white tint added to paints at a paint store is comprised of TiO2.
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post #32 of 235 Old 09-08-13, 12:42 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Hi,

Following this thread with interest. Was planning to use the old BW formula but have not been able to find the old AAA formula. I'm based in the UK so we don't have the same paint brands. Looking to paint a screen that can cope fairly well with ambient light (windows+curtains/side lamp). I have a bright projector (GT750). Based on this, wondering what the best formula would be with new AAA, and whether you can give guidance on base paint to buy here in UK (don't know much about paints). If this is not the right place to ask, let me know if there is another thread I can ask this question - need to paint my projector wall quite soon (next week or two).

Thanks, L.
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post #33 of 235 Old 09-08-13, 10:31 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
lawrefc wrote: View Post
Hi,

Following this thread with interest. Was planning to use the old BW formula but have not been able to find the old AAA formula. I'm based in the UK so we don't have the same paint brands. Looking to paint a screen that can cope fairly well with ambient light (windows+curtains/side lamp). I have a bright projector (GT750). Based on this, wondering what the best formula would be with new AAA, and whether you can give guidance on base paint to buy here in UK (don't know much about paints). If this is not the right place to ask, let me know if there is another thread I can ask this question - need to paint my projector wall quite soon (next week or two).

Thanks, L.
Welcome to HTS!

I know the Dulux brand paints have been used to make BW™ in the UK and are also available in a number of neutral gray tints when the added reflectance of BW™ isn't required. Now that the aluminum paint for making BW™ has changed instead of getting a pinkish beige base paint you would just get one of the neutral gray colors and mix the new AAA-F into it.

For making a Black Widow Ultra™ mix that matches the old BW™ you would use Dulux paint in standard matt or vinyl matt finish in the color 00NN 53/000 which is also called 'Clouded Slate 2' or 'Grey Steel 2' and is approximately a N7.8 neutral gray color.

How large a screen are you making, and how close will you be sitting to it when viewing?
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post #34 of 235 Old 09-09-13, 04:03 AM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Welcome to HTS!

I know the Dulux brand paints have been used to make BW™ in the UK and are also available in a number of neutral gray tints when the added reflectance of BW™ isn't required. Now that the aluminum paint for making BW™ has changed instead of getting a pinkish beige base paint you would just get one of the neutral gray colors and mix the new AAA-F into it.

For making a Black Widow Ultra™ mix that matches the old BW™ you would use Dulux paint in standard matt or vinyl matt finish in the color 00NN 53/000 which is also called 'Clouded Slate 2' or 'Grey Steel 2' and is approximately a N7.8 neutral gray color.

How large a screen are you making, and how close will you be sitting to it when viewing?
Thanks for the welcome and for all the hard work you and mechman are doing on this - I think it's a big help to a lot of people out there. Was planning to paint directly on plaster with an undercoat, screen about 10 feet diagonal, sitting distance about 10 feet. Four walls and ceiling are cream so quite a lot of ambient light. Currently projecting on cream wall which works quite well with GT750, but struggles a bit at times (especially daytime, despite curtains). Hoping mostly to improve the contrast a bit with BW. Will probably upgrade later to Optoma HD-25 LV, so will have good lumens whatever happens.

Thanks, L.
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post #35 of 235 Old 09-09-13, 04:32 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
Did you mix your AAA into the base paint in a 4:1 ratio (4 parts base to 1 part AAA)? Did you use the Fine grade of AAA?

Titanium Dioxide is the basic white pigment for white paints in most areas, and has been for decades. Before TiO2 was used they used to use a very white salt of Lead, but it was discovered that when paint based on the Lead salt was eaten by children it could cause brain damage thus it was dropped for TiO2,

They are unclear as to what exactly creates the LumiTec advantage. It could be simply using more TiO2 than they do in their regular paints, or it could be that the TiO2 is somehow made more reflective by altering the shape of the crystals.

Pure regular TiO2 powder does NOT have a gain over 1.0. The white tint added to paints at a paint store is comprised of TiO2.
Thanks for the info about the titanium dioxide. I didnt make the "pure" BW, i used the lumitec white and tinted with AAA-F in a 5:1 mix... i will try a 4:1 mix to see if i cant see the shimering. I have an epson 5020 with an High Power screen in a cave, but the ceiling is very near the screen and reflects a lot and kills the contrast, and i have a brown ceiling! So i thought that making a "light" BW Ultra the screen could absorb some of the reflections. I will paint a board with lumitec white and another with a 4:1 mix with lumitec white and the AAA to see what i like most. What do you think it will be best? The screen will be 124´ and the throw now is now 20 feet but i could go 12.5 feet
Thanks again

Last edited by lgreis; 09-09-13 at 04:39 PM.
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post #36 of 235 Old 09-09-13, 07:39 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
lgreis wrote: View Post
Thanks for the info about the titanium dioxide. I didnt make the "pure" BW, i used the lumitec white and tinted with AAA-F in a 5:1 mix... i will try a 4:1 mix to see if i cant see the shimering.
If the AAA-F is somehow causing the shimmering you are seeing then adding even more of it (the recommended 20% as opposed to the 16.666% you used) would only worsen the problem. However neither Mech nor myself have noticed anything close to shimmering coming from adding 20% AAA-F to the paints from the U.S..

Quote:
I have an epson 5020 with an High Power screen in a cave, but the ceiling is very near the screen and reflects a lot and kills the contrast, and i have a brown ceiling! So i thought that making a "light" BW Ultra the screen could absorb some of the reflections. I will paint a board with lumitec white and another with a 4:1 mix with lumitec white and the AAA to see what i like most. What do you think it will be best? The screen will be 124´ and the throw now is now 20 feet but i could go 12.5 feet
Thanks again
So you are currently using a Da-Lite High Power screen? That screen is retroreflective and the angle the projected light hits the screen, and your viewing angle of the screen, will have a LOT of effect on the viewed brightness of the image. To get the brightest image the projector should be as close to your eyes as possible.

Going by the data from projectorcentral, your screen is getting hit with about 13 fL. of image brightness. For some people this is too dark when using a non-white screen (but not for others). If you could mount your PJ so it is only 12.5 feet from the screen you would almost double the image brightness and you could use a deeper gray screen.

Black Widow Ultra™ make with a white LumiTec base paint would produce around an N9 screen. That light a gray won't help absorb much ambient light (or light reflected to the ceiling from the screen). If you could move that PJ closer to the screen you wouldn't even have to mess with AAA-F and just use a neutral gray paint. Here are four known neutral grays for use in the U.K. (from darker to lighter gray):

British neutrals:
Dulux paint in standard matt or vinyl matt finish:

00NN 53/000 clouded slate 2, grey steel 2 [N7.8]
00NN 62/000 ebony mists 5 [N8.3]
00NN 72/000 clouded slate 3, grey steel 3 [N8.8]
00NN 83/000 clouded slate 4, grey steel 4 [N9.3]
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post #37 of 235 Old 10-01-13, 09:22 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

First, let me thanks everybody for the excellent research that has been accomplished here.

Given that only the new AAA is available, I'm going to have to participate in BW Ultra development. Our house is being remodeled and we've signed up the paint crew to handle this part of the job as well.

The projection surface is along a Eastern wall right next to a large Southern exposure that is mostly sliding glass door. The floors are finished white oak and the ceiling is a darker exposed wood of some unknown '60s construction choice. We don't have a blackout solution, so the environment will be fairly bright most of the time.

We have a Sony VPL-HS20, 1400 lumens, 1300:1 contrast ratio. The throw is somewhat under 13' 9". We've been using this projector against a white wall in a different bright environment since 2004 so we're used to it being washed out and unusable except late at night.

Our plans were to paint these walls with Benjamin Moore "Smoke Embers" 1466. The projection wall section is separated by a full height fireplace brick surround, so we're thinking of just painting that entire wall segment with BW Ultra and forgoing a picture frame around the image. We previously enjoyed the disappearance of the screen in our old setup so this seems natural.

The question is what Benjamin Moore color should we consider switching to as the base here instead of Smoke Embers to get a good result in BW Ultra? I've tried translating the Glidden and Munsell numbers over to BM and am generally amazed by the non-pureness of the greys being shown by the BM website. If the new AAA wants a more pure grey instead of a slightly red/orange one, then why are these converted colors looking so "non-grey" to me?

Also, does anybody have any experience with BM's finish choices? Our other walls are slated to be eggshell, but I'm wondering now if that will cause hot spots with BM paint.
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post #38 of 235 Old 10-04-13, 01:18 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

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bjamm wrote: View Post
Just adding another supplier, probably best/cheapest?

SummitRacing.com - http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...um-base-paints

I bought a 32oz for $55 shipped to make a gallon. They drop ship direct from Createx and I received one today with lot number 97. Not sure how numbers will change once they go over lot 100.. What is recommended paint to mix with it now in the neutral gray? I have access to HD Behr, Lowes Valspar, and Sherwin Williams..
I just got lot 104 dropped shipped from Createx via TCP Global via Amazon. (Saves a few dollars via Amazon.)

There's simply an extra digit to read 104.
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post #39 of 235 Old 10-07-13, 04:20 AM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
If the AAA-F is somehow causing the shimmering you are seeing then adding even more of it (the recommended 20% as opposed to the 16.666% you used) would only worsen the problem. However neither Mech nor myself have noticed anything close to shimmering coming from adding 20% AAA-F to the paints from the U.S..


So you are currently using a Da-Lite High Power screen? That screen is retroreflective and the angle the projected light hits the screen, and your viewing angle of the screen, will have a LOT of effect on the viewed brightness of the image. To get the brightest image the projector should be as close to your eyes as possible.

Going by the data from projectorcentral, your screen is getting hit with about 13 fL. of image brightness. For some people this is too dark when using a non-white screen (but not for others). If you could mount your PJ so it is only 12.5 feet from the screen you would almost double the image brightness and you could use a deeper gray screen.

Black Widow Ultra™ make with a white LumiTec base paint would produce around an N9 screen. That light a gray won't help absorb much ambient light (or light reflected to the ceiling from the screen). If you could move that PJ closer to the screen you wouldn't even have to mess with AAA-F and just use a neutral gray paint. Here are four known neutral grays for use in the U.K. (from darker to lighter gray):

British neutrals:
Dulux paint in standard matt or vinyl matt finish:

00NN 53/000 clouded slate 2, grey steel 2 [N7.8]
00NN 62/000 ebony mists 5 [N8.3]
00NN 72/000 clouded slate 3, grey steel 3 [N8.8]
00NN 83/000 clouded slate 4, grey steel 4 [N9.3]

Looking for the same sort of advise please, I have an Epson TW9200, 2400 lumens, 320,000:1 contrast, set 3.5m (12ft) back from the wall, 120" screen size.

I have run the calcs and based on the gains of the paints above I would end up with either around 28fL for the (9.3) and around 20fL (7.8).

Am I right in understanding your post above, at this level of brightness you are saying that adding the AAA is not required, or would you suggest going for a darker grey and add AAA?

Any help would be great.
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post #40 of 235 Old 10-07-13, 08:29 AM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Hi,
What colour (rgb) value should the grey paint be, before adding the AAA ?
thx!!
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