Black Widow Ultra™ Development - Page 5 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #41 of 235 Old 10-10-13, 08:40 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
ohmantics wrote: View Post
First, let me thanks everybody for the excellent research that has been accomplished here.

Given that only the new AAA is available, I'm going to have to participate in BW Ultra development. Our house is being remodeled and we've signed up the paint crew to handle this part of the job as well.

The projection surface is along a Eastern wall right next to a large Southern exposure that is mostly sliding glass door. The floors are finished white oak and the ceiling is a darker exposed wood of some unknown '60s construction choice. We don't have a blackout solution, so the environment will be fairly bright most of the time.

We have a Sony VPL-HS20, 1400 lumens, 1300:1 contrast ratio. The throw is somewhat under 13' 9". We've been using this projector against a white wall in a different bright environment since 2004 so we're used to it being washed out and unusable except late at night.

Our plans were to paint these walls with Benjamin Moore "Smoke Embers" 1466. The projection wall section is separated by a full height fireplace brick surround, so we're thinking of just painting that entire wall segment with BW Ultra and forgoing a picture frame around the image. We previously enjoyed the disappearance of the screen in our old setup so this seems natural.

The question is what Benjamin Moore color should we consider switching to as the base here instead of Smoke Embers to get a good result in BW Ultra? I've tried translating the Glidden and Munsell numbers over to BM and am generally amazed by the non-pureness of the greys being shown by the BM website. If the new AAA wants a more pure grey instead of a slightly red/orange one, then why are these converted colors looking so "non-grey" to me?

Also, does anybody have any experience with BM's finish choices? Our other walls are slated to be eggshell, but I'm wondering now if that will cause hot spots with BM paint.
Sorry for being so VERY late in this reply. I could give you the reasons for that, but it will do to just say that sometimes life just gets in the way.

BM has very few truly neutral gray colors in their listed paints, but your PJ isn't all that bright and you could well do best by just using BM's white paint as a base for Black Widow Ultra™. Mech has tested his sample at N8.5. Most white paints are around N9.5 out of the can. I'm unfamiliar with the BM gloss levels so I can only recommend to use a flat or matte finish.

What size screen are you painting?
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post #42 of 235 Old 10-10-13, 08:46 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

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mcc05 wrote: View Post
Looking for the same sort of advise please, I have an Epson TW9200, 2400 lumens, 320,000:1 contrast, set 3.5m (12ft) back from the wall, 120" screen size.

I have run the calcs and based on the gains of the paints above I would end up with either around 28fL for the (9.3) and around 20fL (7.8).

Am I right in understanding your post above, at this level of brightness you are saying that adding the AAA is not required, or would you suggest going for a darker grey and add AAA?

Any help would be great.
Welcome to HTS!

It is always best to not use a reflectively-enhanced screen paint unless it is truly needed. In your case it sounds like a regular neutral gray paint would work just fine.
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post #43 of 235 Old 10-13-13, 06:20 AM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

ohmantics,

DO NOT use eggshell finish with B.M. doing Black Widow. I did and was a total disaster....plain flat finish all the way. If you give us the dimension of your screen, we can help you with the B.M. base paint to make the B.W. Ultra mix.
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post #44 of 235 Old 10-13-13, 06:48 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Love everything here, I am new though, and have a few basic questions I couldn't find clear answers to:

- Does the AAA paint add a gray tint to the color if you use a pure white base (My wife does not want a pure white wall, so this is important)
- Is AAA really the only stuff to use, I don't see this debated, but I assume that aluminum paint from Lowes, HD, Menards, and Ace won't work well?

I've meant to paint with Black Widow for years after seeing discussion on it, but I grew content with a white wall. I just replaced my bulb with generic by accident though, and it is definitely not as bright, so I need a boost.

I plan to combine the aluminum with Sherwin-Williams ProClassic Smooth Enamel Satin Extra White, # B20 W 51 because of an article on projector central where they found it clearly better than several other gray and white paints. Howver, my room has a massive picture window, so I wonder if that combined with the wife's concerns means I need to add some gray.

Thank you,
Bob
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post #45 of 235 Old 10-14-13, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

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rdcollns wrote: View Post
- Does the AAA paint add a gray tint to the color if you use a pure white base (My wife does not want a pure white wall, so this is important)
Yes

Quote:
rdcollns wrote: View Post
- Is AAA really the only stuff to use, I don't see this debated, but I assume that aluminum paint from Lowes, HD, Menards, and Ace won't work well?
Anything other than AAA will not work.


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post #46 of 235 Old 10-14-13, 12:13 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
rdcollns wrote: View Post
Love everything here, I am new though, and have a few basic questions I couldn't find clear answers to:
Welcome to HTS!

Quote:
- Does the AAA paint add a gray tint to the color if you use a pure white base (My wife does not want a pure white wall, so this is important)
Yes, Auto Air Aluminum-fine (the label is actually Auto-Air Colors Aluminum Base-fine) will darken the mix if the paint it is added to is lighter than it is; if added to a paint that is darker that AAA-F then it would lighten the mix. AAA-F will also add a bit of blue to the mix, but the new AAA-F does this MUCH less than the old version, so much less that the base paint it is added to no longer needs to be color-corrected to produce a neutral gray.
Quote:
- Is AAA really the only stuff to use, I don't see this debated, but I assume that aluminum paint from Lowes, HD, Menards, and Ace won't work well?
In essence, yes. Most other "aluminum" paints do not actually contain aluminum, but rather use mica flakes that have been coated with titanium dioxide to induce reflection. The problem with these mica flakes is that they let light pass through them which causes refraction and this produces unwanted colors in the light reflected off the screen if this property isn't dealt with by the mix formula .

If you can find an aluminum paint that truly uses aluminum flakes or particles it may work in a similar fashion to AAA-F, but it may not. One of the first aluminum paints the developers of Black Widow™ used was an aluminumzed fiberless roof coating, but the asphalt was later found to change the color of the mix about 6 months after it was applied. AAA-F was found and has proven to be the best paint for DIY aluminum screen mixes. It is practically available world-wide as well.

Quote:
I've meant to paint with Black Widow for years after seeing discussion on it, but I grew content with a white wall. I just replaced my bulb with generic by accident though, and it is definitely not as bright, so I need a boost.

I plan to combine the aluminum with Sherwin-Williams ProClassic Smooth Enamel Satin Extra White, # B20 W 51 because of an article on projector central where they found it clearly better than several other gray and white paints. Howver, my room has a massive picture window, so I wonder if that combined with the wife's concerns means I need to add some gray.

Thank you,
Bob
White paints can actually differ greatly in brightness so I'm not sure how bright a screen you are used to watching. We have yet to actually test the gain of the new Black Widow Ultra™ mixes, but I suspect that our brightest DIY screen mix is still C&S™ Ultra that has been measured at a gain of 1.0, but is really a very light gray color of N9.

A few people have had some problems with SW ProClassic hot spotting for them right out of the can so adding aluminum to that paint would almost make hot spotting a certainty. 'Extra White' is not SW's brightest white paint. Both 'Luminous White' and 'High Reflective White' are brighter. Like 'Extra White' these are base colors and not mixed colors. If you want to try making your own Black Widow Ultra™ variant based of SW paints I would recommend 'High Reflective White' in a flat or matte finish.
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post #47 of 235 Old 11-02-13, 05:24 AM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

To those guys who have no access to the usual paints (like me) i post these results on my try to make Black Widow Ultra using as a base Caparol Grau 20. I 'd say that the result was quite good. These readings came after 24 hours. I 'll continue the readings to verify the neutrality of the mix.
Attached Thumbnails
-black-widow-1.jpg  

-grau-20.jpg  

-black-widow-2.jpg  

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post #48 of 235 Old 11-29-13, 03:22 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Hi all,

I'm also based in the UK and in my quest to get better black performance from my Benq W7000, I stumbled upon the world of DIY painting just today!

Right now I have a pull-up 92' "portable" screen because I am renting, but as the walls are white colour and the screen is matte white my contrast ratio is pretty low (<500:1, calibrated light = 20fl). So I'm hoping to paint the screen with the new BW Ultra to see if I can up the contrast significantly. I also have a radiance and i1Pro and can provide measurements if helpful.

As I've never painted anything in my life, I wanted to make 100% sure I'm doing this right. 1) Get Auto Air Aluminium Base Fine (SKU: CTX-4101-X). 2) Get Dulux 00NN 53/000. 3) Get a roller (any recommendations?). 4) Hope for the best.

I was hoping to ask:
* Any advice on which primer to use? How many coats of primer should I use?
* On the Dulux website, I typed in 53/000 and it found the Grey Steel 2. However it asks me to select other options: I first have to choose the finish, shall I get the Matt or Flat Matt? I know this was mentioned before but there was a reference to Vinyl Matt which I cannot see is available (is there a difference with standard and vinyl matt?).
* Then I have to choose whether I want the Paint Mixing option, the Paint Mixing Endurance + Option or the Paint Mixing Kitchen + Matt. Which one should I go for?
* I believe you need 4:1 Dulux:AAA-F, so with a 92' screen, should I get the 2.5L or the 5L tub?
* Finally, how many coats of BW Ultra should I apply?

Thank you very much for the kind response, and sorry for the newbie questions! I just want to make sure I get it right the first time around

Last edited by fragfeaster777; 11-30-13 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Did some more research
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post #49 of 235 Old 11-30-13, 12:29 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Quote:
fragfeaster777 wrote: View Post
Hi all,
Hi! Welcome to HTS!

Quote:
I'm also based in the UK and in my quest to get better black performance from my Benq W7000, I stumbled upon the world of DIY painting just today!

Right now I have a pull-up 92' "portable" screen because I am renting, but as the walls are white colour and the screen is matte white my contrast ratio is pretty low (<500:1, calibrated light = 20fl). So I'm hoping to paint the screen with the new BW Ultra to see if I can up the contrast significantly. I also have a radiance and i1Pro and can provide measurements if helpful.
What ups perceived image contrast is the darkness of the gray shade of the screen. Added aluminum or mica content will brighten the image a bit, but doing so will brighten blacks and grays in the image as much as the whites - this is simple physics. If too much of a reflective agent is added you will get a number of negative viewing attributes; usually graininess for aluminum; and shimmering, graininess and sometimes color shifting for mica due to it's refracting light as well as reflecting. The point is that adding gain to a screen doesn't come for free and a price is paid in image quality if too much is added. Also, the more gain is added to a screen the more the viewing cone of the screen is reduced. If only one or two people watch the screen this may not be much of a factor.

Quote:
As I've never painted anything in my life, I wanted to make 100% sure I'm doing this right. 1) Get Auto Air Aluminium Base Fine (SKU: CTX-4101-X). 2) Get Dulux 00NN 53/000. 3) Get a roller (any recommendations?). 4) Hope for the best.
If you try Black Widow Ultra™, be SURE you get the newer version of AAA-F. If you can still get the older version you can still make the old Black Widow™ which has proven effective with U. K. Dulux paint.

As for what roller cover to use we recommend a short nap be used (1/4" or 5 mm) as it will lay down the least texture when rolling the paint. If this is your first time painting anything PLEASE practice on something else than your screen before painting your screen.

Quote:
I was hoping to ask:
* Any advice on which primer to use? How many coats of primer should I use?
In the States we have a number of latex primers (Kilz 2, BullsEye 1-2-3) and it doesn't really matter which is used. A primer will seal the surface of the substrate being painted and will also be a little sticky so the paint applied over it will adhere better. Since you are in the U. K. I really can't recommend a brand.

Quote:
* On the Dulux website, I typed in 53/000 and it found the Grey Steel 2. However it asks me to select other options: I first have to choose the finish, shall I get the Matt or Flat Matt? I know this was mentioned before but there was a reference to Vinyl Matt which I cannot see is available (is there a difference with standard and vinyl matt?).
* Then I have to choose whether I want the Paint Mixing option, the Paint Mixing Endurance + Option or the Paint Mixing Kitchen + Matt. Which one should I go for?
Those variables are new to me so I can't really be of much help, but I would guess that MATT should be used. Here is a video by Dulux on their paints that may be of help.


Quote:
* I believe you need 4:1 Dulux:AAA-F, so with a 92' screen, should I get the 2.5L or the 5L tub?
I don't see what the coverage is for Dulux paints, but at 92' diagonal 16:9 your screen would have 25 square feet of surface so a liter of paint should do just fine. You would have way more than enough with 2.5L.
Quote:
* Finally, how many coats of BW Ultra should I apply?
The standard number of rolled coats is usually 2, but some folks have managed a good screen in a single coat while others have had to do 3 or 4 coats (usually to overcome painting problems like roller marks).

Quote:
Thank you very much for the kind response, and sorry for the newbie questions! I just want to make sure I get it right the first time around
You are very welcome! Something else to keep in mind is that with 20fL of image brightness you may not need to use a reflectively enhanced paint, just the regular 'Grey Steel 2' may be all you need.
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post #50 of 235 Old 11-30-13, 01:42 PM
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Re: Black Widow Ultra™ Development

Hi Harpmaker

Thank you very much for your very detailed and helpful response! Much appreciated. I am now confident I know what to order and get the project going.

I was under the wrong impression that somehow BW could up the actual (measured) contrast ratio, I didnt realise it was just the perceived contrast ratio that was being affected. May I was being naive that somehow the aluminium didnt reflect much black and reflected more light progressively the brighter it got

Anyway, I still think I will try your BW formulation and not just the grey screen as I find 20fl isnt that much for my room and also I do watch a little bit of 3D, so every bit of brightness helps. So I take-it the 4:1 ratio is the optimum ratio that you guys found that preserved image quality whilst adding a bit of gain? I'm intrigued as to whether the deterioration in quality would show up in calibration tests, such as sharpness.

Thank you again, I will keep you guys informed of my progress. This weekend is to order parts, and next weekend is to paint!
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