Munsell N5 - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 38 Old 09-10-10, 09:47 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
illyalaney wrote: View Post
When I pick some of the Rosco up, I'll be sure to send you guys a sample.
This would be greatly appreciated. All we need is about a square inch of painted substrate (heavy cardstock, cardboard etc.), that way it can be wrapped in a white paper towel and sent as a regular letter. The paper towel gives some protection against the rigors of modern postal travel and also guards against any printed interior of the envelope itself (like a security lining) from rubbing off on the samples. A sample of the black and white paints as well as at least one combination would be fantastic.

Quote:
I'm interested in neutral gray because I work as a colorist and 18% gray is the recommended surround for critical viewing. I know that this is a bit off topic from DIY screens but when it comes to paint, you guys are the only people around that actually know anything about it.
Don't worry about it being a little OT, it's no big deal to move these posts into their own thread if the other mods or admins think it necessary. Neutral gray is neutral gray no matter the ultimate use.

Yeah, while we try to have fun doing it, we do take paint and paint colors seriously enough to purchase equipment to actually measure color, gain and gloss level. Bill (wbassett) even went back to school to learn proper color theory. We want to get this stuff right.

Quote:
There's only one professional "standard" paint right now for color suites and that's the eCinema brand which runs about $125 a gallon. I'm not against spending the money for a good product, I just think it's fun looking for alternatives.
I did a little snooping on the 'net and found eCinema's "How to Create a Professional Final Cut Studio Color Grading Suite" PDF. I didn't see anywhere in the article where is stipulated the N level of the surround (it only calls for a neutral gray), but I'll take your word for it that it's 18%/N5.

Something I found interesting is their quote (I added the bolding):

"We’ll look at each requirement and the solutions eCinema provides. First, a neutral calibrated wall behind your monitor is most easily achieved by painting the wall a neutral shade of gray. Can I get this at the hardware store? Not really. For precise colorimetry a complex formula is required. Household paint has variations from batch to batch which make the formula slightly different depending on when you get it mixed. And there's the problem of knowing exactly what that mixture should be. eCinema has formulated our SP-50 - spectrally flat latex paint specifically for this purpose."

I'm not sure when this was written, but things have changed with house paint tinting in the last several years. In days gone by paint used to be tinted manually and the minimum amount of tint that could be added was 1/96th of an ounce. Today Home Depot can tint to an accuracy of 1/384th of an ounce and Lowe's can even do better than that. I know they can do 1/768th of an ounce and I think I remember being told that their computerized machines are accurate down to 1/1000th of an ounce. While mistints are still possible, the cause would be either because of insufficient maintenance procedures or mechanical failure. This is another reason we try to make our screen mixes as neutral as possible, to include a "fudge factor" that allows for small mixing errors.

No "complex formula" is required for a neutral gray paint. All that is required is a white base paint, black pigment, yellow pigment and red pigment in the correct proportions. Other colors could be used rather than yellow and red, but those are the ones commonly used for a neutral house paint. On another AV forum there are some saying that their screen mixes have "special" properties because they make their "Color Component" (which is added to darken their screen mix to whatever N value they need) out of red, blue, green and yellow artist acrylics. This is demonstrably untrue, but it's a hoot listening to them try to validate their opinions and pseudoscience (which go against proper color theory and even the laws of physics).

BTW, I got to my Home Depot today and got another sample of N5 made. We'll see how this one measures up.

Also, many artist acrylics are available in N5 (sometimes just called Neutral Gray). The least expensive I know of is "Liquitex BASICS 'Neutral Gray Value 5'". Dick Blick sells this on-line for $4.90 for a 8.5 oz. tube. The only hitch is that it is a "satin" paint. They also have the Liquitex BASICS MATT in the same color, but it is only available in 75 ml tubes.

I don't know if you would have need of such tools as a colorist (still not quite sure what that is), but there is an dandy on-line color calculator at EasyRGB.com. They have a free version that runs on your PC called OpenRGB as well.
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post #12 of 38 Old 09-11-10, 02:46 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

I have an updated Behr N5 formula for those following this thread.

Behr ULTRA
8 oz. sample
Deep Base
B - 0 - 85
C - 0 - 11
F - 0 - 4
KX - 0 - 170


L*a*b*: 49.48, -0.03, -0.32
RGB: 117.3, 117.7, 118.1
Color Temperature: 6565.7°K @D65

Any Home Depot should be able to make 8 oz. samples, quarts and gallons from this formula; just multiple the tint amounts by 4 to make a quart, and by 16 to make a gallon.
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post #13 of 38 Old 09-11-10, 03:44 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
I have an updated Behr N5 formula for those following this thread.

Behr ULTRA
8 oz. sample
Deep Base
B - 0 - 85
C - 0 - 11
F - 0 - 4
KX - 0 - 170


L*a*b*: 49.48, -0.03, -0.32
RGB: 117.3, 117.7, 118.1
Color Temperature: 6565.7°K

Any Home Depot should be able to make 8 oz. samples, quarts and gallons from this formula; just multiple the tint amounts by 4 to make a quart, and by 16 to make a gallon.
would this be better than the "viel" i was gonna use in the thread further down?
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post #14 of 38 Old 09-11-10, 07:39 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

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tonydp wrote: View Post
would this be better than the "viel" i was gonna use in the thread further down?
No, you would have to be using a really small screen and/or a really bright PJ to use a "non-enhanced" N5 paint for a screen (I've tried it). A flat N5 gray only reflects 18% of the light that hits it (it's a bit darker than the paint you used for your walls). While getting it in an eggshell finish would increase gain a bit over that, it would still be a very dark screen. Stick with the N7.5 Glidden 'Veil'.

When time permits we will be looking into darker screen mixes, but that won't be until some time next year - our dance card is full right now.
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post #15 of 38 Old 02-19-13, 03:02 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

back from the dead this thread is... I wanted to point you all to this page, which has the gallon and quart formulas for they Behr Ultra gray.
http://www.flandersscientific.com/in..._resources.php

Never take a photographic Kodak 18% gray card to the paint store and have them match it. You can have 2 gray cards, one with a yellow tint, another with a green tint and they will be measure as 18% reflective. Reflectivity values care nothing of hue.

Also, one thing that is important to remember is that there are 2 reasons to use neutral gray. One, when used with biased lighting, it provides comfort to the viewer because it stabilizes the irises. The second is to provide a consistent "white balance" for the eyes, giving a constant reference in the peripheral area around your display/screen, eliminating the negative effects of simultaneous contrast. More on that here:

http://www.webexhibits.org/colorart/contrast.html
http://colorusage.arc.nasa.gov/Simult_and_succ_cont.php
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post #16 of 38 Old 02-19-13, 04:23 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
Jason McKelvey wrote: View Post
back from the dead this thread is... I wanted to point you all to this page, which has the gallon and quart formulas for they Behr Ultra gray.
http://www.flandersscientific.com/in..._resources.php
Wow, I wonder where they got that formula from... oh yeah! US! The joke is on them though because they got both the quart and gallon formulae wrong!
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post #17 of 38 Old 02-19-13, 04:28 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

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Harpmaker wrote: View Post
... they got both the quart and gallon formulae wrong!
Do you have the gallon formula?
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post #18 of 38 Old 02-19-13, 04:39 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

This is what I came up with:

Colorant---BL---CL---FL---KXL
OZ--------3----0----0----7
384th-----54---176--64---0
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post #19 of 38 Old 02-19-13, 04:46 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

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Jason McKelvey wrote: View Post
Do you have the gallon formula?
It's given at the bottom of post #12 in this thread, or rather the way to find it from the 8 oz. formula. Don't forget that 384/384th = 1 oz. of tint so 385/384th oz. of tint would equal 1 oz. and 1/384th oz. of tint. You shouldn't need to bother though just multiple the 8 oz. tint amounts by 16 and give them to the paint-person at Home Depot, their computer should make the correction automatically.
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post #20 of 38 Old 02-19-13, 04:59 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

This is what I came up with:
Got it.

Colorant---BL---CL---FL---KXL
OZ--------3----0----0----7
384th-----208--176--64--32
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