Munsell N5 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #1 of 38 Old 09-01-10, 12:27 AM Thread Starter
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Munsell N5

Hi there

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post.

I'm really hoping someone here can help. I need to find the pain formula mix for Munsell N5 to finish off my film color grading suite.

I have the N8 mix which is...
mixing one gallon of Pittsburgh Paint's pastel-tint white base #80-110 with Lamp black (B-12/48 PPG*); Raw Umber (L-36/48 PPG); and Permanent Red (O-3/48 PPG)

But I really need a break down of N5.

Please someone help

Cheers
Rory
Mine Films
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post #2 of 38 Old 09-01-10, 08:17 AM
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Re: Munsell N5

Harp may have a formula for you, but until then I can throw out some colors for you - Paint Brand - Number - Color Name - RGB

N5 123 123 123

Dunn Edwards DE1087 Dash of Ebony 122 124 124
NCS S 5500-N 124 124 122
Sherwin 2117 Williams Touchstone 122 124 122
Sikkens ON.00.45 121 121 121


PPG 518-5 is a touch lighter than N5 at 130 130 130.


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post #3 of 38 Old 09-01-10, 10:28 AM
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Re: Munsell N5

Hi Rory, welcome to the forum!

I assume you are looking for a paint formula, but if you truly want a pain formula we can probably dig one up somewhere.

I took a Kodak 18% Gray Card (which is N5 on the Munsell neutral scale) to Home Depot and had it color matched, the formula is:
Behr Deep Base
8 oz. sample
B - 0 - 95
C - 0 - 16
F - 0 - 7
KX - 0 - 170


IMPORTANT NOTE: This formula has been replaced by the one in post #12 of this thread here.

This is given in the format of:
Tint Code - oz. - 384th oz

Any Home Depot should be able to make quarts or gallons using this formula as well. If they say they can't, ask to speak with a supervisor or manager.

I seem to have misplaced my spectrophotometer test of this, but I have another sample chit drying and will post the results tomorrow. My memory is that this mix meets our neutrality criteria at HTS, which is quite strict.

PS. Forgot to mention that N5 is available in many artist paints as well. Golden acrylics has a line of neutral grays going from N8 to N2 and Liquitex has a color called Neutral Gray that is N5.
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post #4 of 38 Old 09-01-10, 12:39 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

Knew he'd have a formula!


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post #5 of 38 Old 09-02-10, 03:44 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

Yep, I had a N5 formula, but upon further investigation I think I'll try to tweak it to get a better mix. The published formula in the post above does pass most of our criteria for being a neutral gray, but I think I can make it better and bring it into full accord. It is also just a tad dark coming in with a N value of 4.75.

The mix specs:
L*a*b*: 47.51, 0.62, 0.48
RGB: 114.1, 112.3, 111.8
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post #6 of 38 Old 09-09-10, 07:29 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

Have any of you encountered the Pantone Neutral Gray paint? They only license Fine Paints Of Europe to make it . I'm trying to track down a spectral chart in order to compare it to the eCinema SP-50 Surround Paint and my own custom mixes. I also tried to get a spectral chart from eCinema but they never replied. Thanks!

Here's the Pantone info...

Neutral Gray
PANTONE
17-4402 TPX
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post #7 of 38 Old 09-10-10, 12:18 AM
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Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
illyalaney wrote: View Post
Have any of you encountered the Pantone Neutral Gray paint? They only license Fine Paints Of Europe to make it . I'm trying to track down a spectral chart in order to compare it to the eCinema SP-50 Surround Paint and my own custom mixes. I also tried to get a spectral chart from eCinema but they never replied. Thanks!

Here's the Pantone info...

Neutral Gray
PANTONE
17-4402 TPX
Welcome to the forum illyalaney!

If you need a literal spectral reflectance chart showing reflectance (usually every 10 nm over the visible color spectrum), then no I can't help you with the Pantone color you specified; but I can give you a page that has a mess of color space data for it. http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/898E8C/

For what it's worth, that color doesn't pass our criteria for a neutral gray having a L*a*b* a* value of -2.2. As you will note on the page referenced, the color is called "Dark spring greenish gray".

The spectral reflectance chart for the Behr N5 formula I gave earlier in this thread is below. If you want the actual reflectance values I can give them to you as well. I hope to get a better (more neutral and closer to true N5) version the next time I go to a Home Depot, but the closest one to me is a 70 mile round trip and I haven't gone that direction lately.

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post #8 of 38 Old 09-10-10, 02:57 AM
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Re: Munsell N5

Thanks for the input! That's interesting. I thought since Pantone paint is owned by X-Rite, the neutral gray would be fairly accurate. I'll have to pick up a quart of the Behr paint, I live about 5 blocks from a Home Depot.

I forgot to mention in the last post that I've been looking at the Rosco TV White(60% reflectance) and TV Black(3% reflectance) paints recently. They recommend mixing the two together to get any shade of gray in between. Have you had any experience with their paint? A few of the studio supply stores here in Hollywood carry it so I'm tempted to try them out.

Last edited by illyalaney; 09-10-10 at 02:57 AM. Reason: wanted to say thanks
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post #9 of 38 Old 09-10-10, 11:47 AM
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Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
illyalaney wrote: View Post
Thanks for the input! That's interesting. I thought since Pantone paint is owned by X-Rite, the neutral gray would be fairly accurate. I'll have to pick up a quart of the Behr paint, I live about 5 blocks from a Home Depot.
If I understand the Munsell color space right, all truly neutral grays should have a* and b* values of absolute 0 thereby having no "color" at all and only a lightness value L* (100=white, 0=black and everything in between is a gray). As for why Pantone has their neutral gray actually a bit greenish...

While any Home Depot should be able to make a quart of paint from the tint formula I gave, that formula was for making a 8 oz. sample. To make a quart simply multiply the tint amounts by 4.

Quote:
I forgot to mention in the last post that I've been looking at the Rosco TV White(60% reflectance) and TV Black(3% reflectance) paints recently. They recommend mixing the two together to get any shade of gray in between. Have you had any experience with their paint? A few of the studio supply stores here in Hollywood carry it so I'm tempted to try them out.
The only experience I have had with the Rosco paints is with their Off Broadway White; a member here sent me a sample to measure with my spectrophotometer. It is a nice bright white paint, but no more neutral than white paints sold by Behr and Valspar (they are all a little "warm").

I just looked at Rosco's catalog and while they call the paint "TV White", the actual description says it's a neutral gray. At 60% reflectance in a flat/matte paint that means it's color should be around N8.2. That is very close to a discontinued color from Glidden called "Universal Gray" which measures N8.3 and was indeed neutral. That color should still be in the Home Depot database.

"TV Black" is not called neutral in the Rosco catalog, and it would surprise me if it was a true neutral since most black paints aren't (they tend to be bluish). At 3% reflectance that would be a N2 which is just about as black as can be had using normal paint pigments.

If you do get some of the Rosco TV White and TV Black to experiment with it would be greatly appreciated if you would send Mech or myself some samples to measure with our X-rite i1Pro spectrophotometers.

I don't mean to pry, but what is your interest in neutral gray paints?
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post #10 of 38 Old 09-10-10, 04:09 PM
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Re: Munsell N5

When I pick some of the Rosco up, I'll be sure to send you guys a sample.

I'm interested in neutral gray because I work as a colorist and 18% gray is the recommended surround for critical viewing. I know that this is a bit off topic from DIY screens but when it comes to paint, you guys are the only people around that actually know anything about it. There's only one professional "standard" paint right now for color suites and that's the eCinema brand which runs about $125 a gallon. I'm not against spending the money for a good product, I just think it's fun looking for alternatives.
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