Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions - Page 13 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Old 10-28-07, 02:11 PM
Elite Shackster

Steve Mechelke -mech

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Empire Township, MN
Posts: 14,914
My System
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

I'd like to add here that while some may think it would be beneficial to list a bunch of neutral grays and where they lie in relation to the Munsell system. It's much easier to just browse over to EasyRGB.com and punch in the numbers for the neutral you're looking for.

[PIE]N8 = 202 202 202
N9 = 229 229 229
N8.5 = 215 215 215
and so forth...[/PIE]

Then you would select the paint manufacturer you prefer and select match. It's really that simple! Some manufacturers may not have matches for what you're looking for, but if you have a Lowes nearby nothing matters anyways as they can match just about anything into a Valspar base.

mech
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Old 11-04-07, 01:29 AM
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Tex

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 46
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Thanks for all of the info! I noticed one interesting thing with EasyRGB: True Value's Winter Mist doesn't get listed if I use 210 210 210. Strange!
texfrazer is offline
Old 11-04-07, 01:33 PM
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Jim

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 560
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Quote:
texfrazer wrote: View Post
Thanks for all of the info! I noticed one interesting thing with EasyRGB: True Value's Winter Mist doesn't get listed if I use 210 210 210. Strange!
Yeah, it depends on the algorithm they use.

Winter Mist is 220,220,220.

It looks like EasyRGB uses the total deviation from each color component and also gives some weight to the balance between the 3 when choosing the closest match.

So, when you put in 210,210,210...the total deviation from Winter Mist is 30 (R,G, and B are off 10 points each).

The top 3 matches have a total difference of 9 points, 20 points, and 13 points. Note that the 2nd match is 20 pts off, but more "balanced" than the 3rd match that's only 13 points off.

The "worst match" it returns is Winter Mountain at 200,201,201...total deviation of 28.

Anyway, I don't know exactly what criteria they're using...but it clearly includes both color (thr balance between the R,G, and B components) as well as the shade (luminance level).

Bill may know the specifics of how they compute the top 3 color matches...I know he's been in contact with the EasyRGB creator.
cynical2 is offline
Old 11-09-07, 03:16 PM
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Tex

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 46
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Ah, that makes a lot of sense! I forget that everyone isn't using the tools for the same reason we are (silly me!).
texfrazer is offline
Old 11-30-07, 11:57 PM
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Jim

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 560
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

I came across a site called myperfectcolor.com that sells sample sized cans (and quarts and gallons) of paints that supposedly are "perfect matches" for a wide variety of paints.

After some searching, I was also able to locate neutral grey Munsell paints. For anyone interested, below is a table showing the paint numbers for N6 through N9.5:

This is not useful for ordering enough paint for a screen (too much \$\$\$), but the samples and/or color names listed above could be helpful for color matching at local stores.
cynical2 is offline
Old 12-01-07, 12:35 PM
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Steve Mechelke -mech

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Empire Township, MN
Posts: 14,914
My System
Re: Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions

Excellent find Jim!

mech
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Old 03-23-09, 08:54 PM
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Kent

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 40
Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

Quote:
wbassett wrote: View Post
A while back I had a thread going elsewhere about screen color matching with a very interesting discussion about colors. Here is a chart gives a nice visual representation of what the colors look like and how they compare to each other and also has the RGB values.

I took the RGB values and plotted them on a graph. I like the graph in addition to the swatch chart because I can see the order from light to dark, plus when graphed you can see the color curve better. We always look for a neutral color, but it is interesting to see a lot of commercial screens are slightly green deficient.

What I did next was look at the local paint stores that were close to me. There are a couple of Lowes and Home Depots, but unfortunately Behr, Glidden, or Valspar are not included in the database so I didn't have any matches for what Lowes or Home Depot sells. There is a True Value right in my home town, and over in Bennington VT (a short 9 miles away!) there is a Sherwin Williams store.

So I narrowed things for a nice Munsell N8 match to either Winter Mountain from True Value with an RGB value of 200 201 201, or Sherwin Williams Gray Screen which comes it at 199 203 203.

I ended up going with Gray Screen SW7071 for my first test. The reason why is it comes in a very durable matte finish, and Winter Mountain only comes in the flat finish. Flat paints are okay, but they are not very easy to clean, and flat paint can get dirty or smudge very easily. Also matte is the same surface that commercial screens have, so I was intrigued with Sherwin Williams.

When I walked through the door, there was a display for the Duration brand in the matte finish. One panel was painted with a flat white, the other with the Duration matte white. There were markers there and the display encouraged you to draw on both panels... which I did Then I took the spray bottle and sprayed water on each panel... the marker drawing on the Duration matte finish actual started to come off just by being hit with the water. A quick whip with a paper towel they had there and it came completely off while the flat paint panel remained marked up. I was sold! Anyone that knows me and the extensive torture testing I did with the laminates knows I like a tough and durable screen, and for a painted screen this is pretty durable stuff.

I searched with no luck...but which of your BW formualtions is closes to Firehawk from Stewart? I am attempting to locate a manual stewart firehawk for a reasonable price but not easy....It seems to me that stewart is doing something similar to bw with "flakes' as you can see reflective particles through out the surface but not sheen or beads?
Old 03-23-09, 09:49 PM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster

Bill

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,234
Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

Quote:
I searched with no luck...but which of your BW formualtions is closes to Firehawk from Stewart? I am attempting to locate a manual stewart firehawk for a reasonable price but not easy....It seems to me that stewart is doing something similar to bw with "flakes' as you can see reflective particles through out the surface but not sheen or beads?
I need to go back and edit that section of this thread. It's not that the information is wrong, it's just at the time the person that did the readings referenced C instead of D65. They are close, but will give different readings. Thanks for bringing this back up, it jogged my memory to get the updates to this thread done!

Right now there is only one 'formulation' of BW, that is the AAA-F with Bermudia Beige. The Henry version was dropped because Henry, like Black Jack isn't readily available to everyone, and it's expensive to buy online (Shipping). Also over the long haul, the Henry version ended up yellowing slightly, something we did not see because it takes awhile for it to happen. So we dropped it as a recommended method.

The FireHawk from the chart, when converted to D65 it comes out to 146 150 152 with a temp of 6855K.

Keep in mind this the G2, and that is no longer made. Mech has some samples coming of the new FireHawk so we will be getting some new readings soon as well as gain readings. The G2 was down around an N6 gray though.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein

"If all else fails, spin the cat."- Grzboken
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Old 03-24-09, 07:48 AM
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Kent

Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 40
Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

Quote:
wbassett wrote: View Post
I need to go back and edit that section of this thread. It's not that the information is wrong, it's just at the time the person that did the readings referenced C instead of D65. They are close, but will give different readings. Thanks for bringing this back up, it jogged my memory to get the updates to this thread done!

Right now there is only one 'formulation' of BW, that is the AAA-F with Bermudia Beige. The Henry version was dropped because Henry, like Black Jack isn't readily available to everyone, and it's expensive to buy online (Shipping). Also over the long haul, the Henry version ended up yellowing slightly, something we did not see because it takes awhile for it to happen. So we dropped it as a recommended method.

The FireHawk from the chart, when converted to D65 it comes out to 146 150 152 with a temp of 6855K.

Keep in mind this the G2, and that is no longer made. Mech has some samples coming of the new FireHawk so we will be getting some new readings soon as well as gain readings. The G2 was down around an N6 gray though.

Yes the firehawk does seem quite dark....have you put it under a microscope to see what's going on?

If you get the new formulation and best guess as to what's in it I would be happy to be a tester.
Old 03-25-09, 06:15 AM
Elite Shackster

Steve Mechelke -mech

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Empire Township, MN
Posts: 14,914
My System
Re: Narrowing the Playing Field

Quote:
Yes the firehawk does seem quite dark....have you put it under a microscope to see what's going on?

If you get the new formulation and best guess as to what's in it I would be happy to be a tester.
Screen manufacturers do things quite differently than diy paint. Some consist of multiple optic layers stacked upon each other (DNP -Supernova) and some consist of glass beads 9 microns in diameter embedded into a white vinyl field and covered by a thin elastic top layer (High Power). Even if we knew what it was that made some of these materials tick, the odds of reproducing it in a garage are slim.

I have to admit that I've done very little research on the Firehawks. But I do have samples coming for review. If it's like some of the other manufactured materials, it's not something we could recreate. Also, how do you think Stewart would react if I asked for samples for review and then we proceeded to attempt to build a diy version of it? I'm certain they wouldn't be pleased. We (the moderators of this screen forum) have agreed to not compare any manufactured material to diy material. It would be a disservice to the manufacturers.

If you're looking for a diy paint I'd recommend either Black Widow or Cream and Sugar. If you want something in between than you may want to sign up to be a beta tester of the new N8 diy paint mix coming out soon.
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