Harsh and piercing sound - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #21 of 31 Old 04-23-15, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

Oops, turns out, that it was a D2905/970000 tweeter..

Do you guys have any idea about, what i can do?
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post #22 of 31 Old 04-23-15, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

I found this, in his article about the 2.5 clone:

The alternative tweeter he uses here 9500, is very close to my 9700..

Is it possible to modify it, to fit my 9700, without having measurements?

I don't know much about crossover designing - so please tell me, if I'm asking stupid questions
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post #23 of 31 Old 04-23-15, 05:50 PM
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

JensToft91 wrote: View Post
Okay, I'll try giving a more thorough explanation with pictures..

5.1 setup:

See pictures: http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...orm-style.html

First, corrections audyssey made (this is with the old microphone, from the basement)

I have a measurement, of the speaker when it was tuned:

I contacted him, with these problems, and he will send me another resistor, and a capacitor to:
1. Lower the frequency range from 3kHz and up
2. Flatten the bump at 3kHz

I have all speakers crossed at 80 Hz, will change surrounds to 100 Hz due to your recommendation.

I did the sweeps again:

-3 dbFS
-17.5 on amp

I didn't notice any screeching noices.. I didn't want to go any louder, but maybe i should?

I listened to music 8 hours yesterday, and not once did i notice the annoying sound I have been referring to..

I think that the old audyssey microphone is more flat, and therefore boosts the range from 100-500Hz, and leave the higher end pretty flat.

It's practically the same i will do, when i lower the higher end in the crossover - as Audyssey probably set the speaker level by the higher frequencies.


Room response, measured with audyssey mic


First thing that jumped out is the gains on all speakers below 80 Hz. It's like they're all set to full band and there's no subwoofer connected. The 20-80 Hz should be flat or not registering anything if a subwoofer is connected. Even if you didn't have a sub those gains or audio being played below 80 should only be on the front left & right. Haven't used Audyssey in a little while, but it shouldn't be displaying that gain under 80 as no info/audio should be being sent.

Next is the surround left and the jump at 250 Hz which is the opposite of the surround right I believe. Do you have it within 2 feet of a wall? Remember the worst place in any room for a speaker is if you have equal distance from the wall behind it and the side wall. e.g 2 feet from rear wall, 2 feet to side wall. While on the topic the best place (for most rooms) is for L, R, SL, SR, is 33% of the rooms length as well as 33% the rooms width. e.g. 12 x 10 room. Place them 3.96 feet and 3.33 feet from respective walls. Of course this can't typically be done. Also never place anything other than a sub within 2 feet of the wall to its side.

When you did hear the strange noises were they always at higher frequencies? That would make sense to me from what you described on the crossover. Looks are deceiving, it could be the inductor. Remember that with inductors low frequencies flow through them at low resistance, but as the frequency gets higher so does the resistance. High frequency signals are met with a extremely high resistance on the inductors.
On capacitors it's the opposite. High frequencies flow through them at very low resistances, yet when a lower signal like an 60 Hz wave for this example tries to flow through a capacitor the resistance is immense.
The plane is now boarding so I have to run. Check out this crossover calculator if you want to determine what yours is. http://www.erseaudio.com/CrossoverCalculators
there's also a good one I've used in the Amazon app store.

It's not thrilling yet I recommend reading aspects like this http://artsites.ucsc.edu/ems/music/t...impedance.html

My recommendation is to get better crossovers that have good damping with a Linkwitz Riley filter. It eliminates the time variations at the crossover points.... Got to board. Talk to you guys later
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post #24 of 31 Old 04-23-15, 08:10 PM
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

Typical 2 tweeters cannot be interchanged without any changes in xover. Troels has an article where he measured the 9500/9700/9900 (see www.troelsgravesen.dk/95009700.htm). This does a good job of showing the differences in their on-axis response and the different crossover sections required to address their respective deviations from flat response.

About your cabinet, the parameters that will have the most impact the xover design are the baffle width as well at the position of the drivers on the baffle. If the drivers are correctly positioned, then the easiest option is to purchase a pair of 9500's (they fit in the same cutout). The internal volume of your cabinet is going to impact the bass response but should not require crossover changes.

If the dimensions are different then the above crossover likely requires changes even for the 9500. Unfortunately, designing a new crossover requires measurements of the individual drivers in the cabinet to start with. That said, you can probably achieve an improvement over what you currently have by studying the different response curves and modeling the crossovers + drivers to shape the response. With regards to the target xover shapes (LR2, LR4...), an important distinction you need to make is between the electrical and acoustic shapes. The acoustical shape is the sum of the electrical filter and the driver's own acoustic rollof. For a given target acoustic shape, the electrical filter will deviate from the ideal ones to achieve the "textbook" acoustic shape.
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post #25 of 31 Old 04-27-15, 06:26 AM
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

Hi Jens
Forget about the amp, speakers and crossovers ( for now at least).
The first thing you need to do is get a hearing test as this will give you a baseline to work from. I suffer from tinnitus in my left ear, which causes a permanent ringing in the 16 to 18000khz range. This effects how I hear some of the upper register sounds.
Once you have that sorted then the next stage is to look at the quality of your recordings.

High quality flac's are very good for clean sound. However there is no getting around a poor mix or reproduction.
In all of the samples you posted there is a distinctive screech and echo in the 1 to 3000khz ranges right in the mid to upper vocal ranges. Rhianna sounds dreadful, in the upper vocal range. The likely cause is horrible reproduction and or compression to keep file sizes small for online video. Spotify doesn't provide good quality audio even though they say they do, its why I don't use them any more.
You have to have a quality recording before you can make any judgement.

Test the sound output with a quality pair of headphones. If you hear the same in the phones as the speakers then the recordings are the problem.

The equipment you have when run in purely flat response ( no equalizer) coupled with the speakers you have should give a pretty good output. A good crossover definitely helps here but is not the only criteria for good sound.

Stay away from Audusey as I've never been impressed with it as its not able to account for a lot of in-room variables.
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-29-15, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

Right, quite a bit information to comment on..

I've read it all, and i will take all the information into consideration, thanks!

Audyssey problems: boosting below 80hz, doesn't really make any sense, but as far as i know, Denon sets the crossover, and audyssey equalizes.. So it makes sense to equalize the full spectrum, if you don't have a subwoofer.

Two tweeter / crossover problems: I've made an appointment with the guy, who designed the speakers - he will help me tune them all over again - only paying for the components.. Nice!

Ear problems? I do have them, quite sure of it.. But! The more i listen to music, and try to pinpoint the problems, the more I'm sure it's in the crossovers. All music with alot of lowend, and the highend sounds beautiful of these speakers.. But every thing with alot of MID sounds bad.. Rock, pop and so on..

I will return, when i get these speakers tuned!

THANKS for all the replies
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post #27 of 31 Old 04-29-15, 08:05 PM
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

You are on the right track. Personally I would study the aforementioned articles to make sure the redesigned crossover addresses all the current response issues before actually paying/ordering the new components. If you don't have the tools to simulate the crossover at least try to see if the proper filter sections are in place to address the lack of baffle step compensation and the tweeter response. You could even post it here if the designer agrees... Maybe the designer can explain his crossover design and why it wasn't designed that way in the first place.
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post #28 of 31 Old 04-30-15, 03:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

All his is designs are open for the public.. That's what he does for a living..
He has been working for speaker companies for many years, and decided to go on his own..

I believe that my speaker, is a "resale", where he used an old cabinet, replaced the drivers, and designed the crossover to a flat response.. Therefore didn't spend that much time, actually listening to this speaker.. He did ask me, if i was satisfied - and as it was my first HiFi speaker, i was impressed be the bass and the clear highs - i wasn't aware of this problem.. Now he will re-tune it, for free..

You can visit his site, but it's in danish.. A few examples of speaker kits:
(I don't know if this is allowed on this site? This is not advertisement, only links, so you guys can check out his other crossover designs)


Maybe this can give you an idea about his work
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post #29 of 31 Old 04-30-15, 03:28 PM
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

After reading through the thread, I'm seeing:
- an issue with high frequency quality, a screeching sound
- a possible measurement mic problem
- a possible crossover problem
- a possible driver problem
- and lots of other suggestions, plus
- what looks like a placement issue, too.

To my ears, use of this term implies distortion. Linear distortion has been discussed (hot top end due to bad mic) but close-mic'ed measurements look very good so I'll discount FR.

Non-linear distortion (harmonic, intermodulation) sounds very much like screeching to me, caused in my case, by a tweeter being crossed too low. I'm sure that's not the case here.

Hearing issues are a real possibility. Once went to see Neil Young with an ear infection, and sat at the top of bleachers, resting on a cinderblock wall. I couldn't look at the stage because the ear near the wall would screech when I turned my head and caught the wall reflection in that ear. Had Otitis Media once, so I've had tubes in my ears as an adult. Tube caused distortion even at low levels; restaurant conversation was decidedly one-sided - my good ear.

If it's your ears, all loud sources should sound bad, not just these speakers.

Bad Mic
Contact Denon to see if it's warrantable. However, this should show up in speaker measurements, assuming you have a measurement mic, separate from the Audyssey mic (you are using the Audyssey mic when running Audyssey, aren't you?)

Crossover/driver problem
I strongly disagree with the pundits who criticize a speaker based on a simple XO circuit. Without knowing the drivers' responses and modeling the system, the comments are guesswork. Some XO's have 4 parts, some have 20 for the same driver combination - many ways to skin a cat, as they say.

Glad to hear you're in contact with the maker, as he can fill in a lot of the XO questions, as well as verifying speaker performance. I bet he has other speakers you can assess for screech, too.

Placement issues
Whenever you see a dip in the 100-200Hz range, with a harmonic structure (second dip at 2x frequency), think boundary reflection. A speaker in front of a wall will have a dip at a frequency that's:
283/distance (feet) = dip frequency
283 is 1/4 the speed of sound in feet per second. We're looking for a 1/2 wavelength difference (when the reflection is out of phase) for sound that's traveled to the wall and back, the second factor of 1/2. A dip at 141.5Hz would likely be due to a wall 2 feet away from the speaker, especially if there's another dip at 283Hz.

Note this applies to floors and ceilings as well, but with some trigonometry becasue the floor or ceiling are not directly behind the speaker, like the front wall is.

Finally, if you don't have a sub, at least tell the AVR the surrounds are SMALL. They're getting one of a lot of bass boost!

HAve fun,
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post #30 of 31 Old 04-30-15, 08:47 PM
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Re: Harsh and piercing sound

I'm glad ''fbov'' took the time to post a comprehensive ''wrap-up'' like this. Just to clarify, if the crossover comment refers to my earlier posts he assumed my writing was general whereas it was specific to these drivers in a 2-way application.

fbov wrote: View Post
Crossover/driver problem
I strongly disagree with the pundits who criticize a speaker based on a simple XO circuit. Without knowing the drivers' responses and modeling the system, the comments are guesswork. Some XO's have 4 parts, some have 20 for the same driver combination - many ways to skin a cat, as they say.
dgmartin wrote: View Post
You are right. Irrespectively of the inductor size or value, this crossover is far too simplistic to match the level of performance your drivers are capable of.
dgmartin wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, designing a new crossover requires measurements of the individual drivers in the cabinet to start with.
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