Newbie looking to build first set...

**fschris** · **10-30-09, 08:07 PM**

I'd like to make a build a set of speakers... A little larger than book shelf but a little smaller than full size. I am thinking about 6 inch full range driver 2-way system. Does anyone have alink to some plans that I could look at... Maybe some drivers to use? I am trying to figure out how to make sure the Box is of the correct size. I am playing around with a program called WINISD and I am not sure if that program is just for building subwoofers or also full range speaker boxes. I'd like to keep the budget around 250usd or less.

Fschris

**evilskillit** · **10-30-09, 09:34 PM**

Ok well where are you using the speakers? Do you want bookshelves or just skinny floor standing speakers or what? There are a lot of great designs out there and I can probably help make you a recommendation.

Where are you using them? What are you listening to? Are you using them with a sub or not? What do you want them to look like?

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 02:31 AM**

do you care about bass; if you do, do you plan to use a subwoofer also?

edit: also, how 'full range' do you want them? the larger the speaker diameter the lower the 'breakup mode' (where the speaker is no longer a piston and is more like a 'floppy' piece of material) of the cone, but the more efficient the speaker will be (typically louder with less watts)...

I made a pair of full range speakers; my budget was almost twice what you are shooting for though and some of the materials I already had on hand; what do you have to work with?

my project: http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...enclosure.html

Good choice to shoot for a fullrange speaker though; you are on the right track

as far as companies to check out I would look at the company I used; DC Gold audio, the list of my speaker transducers was ~$430 per pair however I found them for ~$290; I just did a google product search for "N7r" (the transducers I used) and found a pair of 4 ohm N7r's for $189 <http://www.vesselprotectionproducts.com/dc-gold-n7r-7-reference-series-speaker-black-4-ohm-p-1066.html?zenid=d30662d1200d85797618b78ee1a70f8a> I don't know if that is an error or not since the 8 ohm ones are all listed ~$280 at best, I don't know if you *need* 8 ohms, but if you do not then maybe consider that 4 ohm'er for $190

EDIT (again i know!): DC gold also has a 6x9 which I have heard great things about; the 6x9, shape helps to reduce breakup modes (or at least 'space' them out instead of being concentrated at a certain resonance); for some reason some of the pictures online show the cones to be blue in color behind the grills, they are black; I don't know what's up with that: must be older pictures, I can give David a shout sometime soon if that matters...

**Yad** · **10-31-09, 03:00 AM**

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm there are lot's of links

I think this one http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AT-SW.htm will be a perfect choice for a many years forward.
I have an experience of use "true ribbon" tweeters. I'm exited.

**evilskillit** · **10-31-09, 04:37 AM**

I was going to see what he had in mind before I started throwing stuff out. However if you have $250 to spend you could get a Tritrix kit from partsexpress, which make a great set of mains and pretty nice musical speakers. The transmission line has bass output down to around. The kit costs $119 with free shipping. If you're not handy with woodworking you can buy the premade MDF cabinets for another $98. Buy some wood glue and some paint and you're still in under $250.

If you're good with wood you can make your own cabinets for less than half of $98. Then you can take the money you've saved and start working towards a DIY sub to go with them.

Check it out

Otherwise if $250 is your budget you're going to have to give us more to go on, and probably be willing to make some compromises. Even when DIYing you can't build a really nice set of full range speakers with really great sound, good definition and plenty of deep bass for $250 for a pair. But you can do it for less than $600 or so for a pair.

**Yad** · **10-31-09, 04:40 AM**

do you think $ 250 is too small money for real hi-fi ? (i do think so)

**evilskillit** · **10-31-09, 05:29 AM**

I think a set of $250 speakers can sound great. My microbes sound and I would consider them to be very hi-fi but they do not have much bass. A sub makes them perfect tho. However if you want loud speakers with a lot of bass and only have $250 to spend then you will probably have to sacrafice having really excellt mids and highs for a bigger louder less expensive speaker. This is a classic pick 3 situation

Cost less than $250
Has lots of bass
Has sparking highs and beautiful mids.

Pick 2 of the above items, ignore the 3rd.

**fschris** · **10-31-09, 08:59 AM**

Mostly for music....acoutsic, folk, blue grass, classic guitar, pink floyd. no Rap or heavy metal. a skinny pair of floor standing would be okay... My living room is not big. maybe 15ftx20ft. i see so many drivers and then I am wondering about the cross overs. i have a yamaha rcv... HTR 5990.
If 250 is too cheap I can spend more. I thought a DIY could save money versus buying a pair of pre made speakers. I am looking to build the cabinets from scratch.

what about these on ebay item#170399596841

**fschris** · **10-31-09, 09:05 AM**

if I were to spend 600 for a pair.... what kinds of parts am I looking to get into to?

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 11:49 AM**

you mentioned diy could save money; it definitely can however you mentioned you wanted hi-fi and fullrange speakers. True fullrange speakers (a single voice coil for the lows, mids and highs) are not very common (at least I feel they are not that common) so the price you would pay for a given quality of fullrange speakers (diy or not) will probably be higher than you would pay for a 'comparable' two or three way system, not that I consider them to be comparable, I am just referring to a similar high and low frequency response; there are other benefits of fullrange speakers that cannot be achieved by a crossed-over system however being able to achieve those benefits are what is increasing the price

my speakers probably cost ~$630-670 to make all said and done, however some of my materials are left over (in my calculation I tried to figure what the cost of the material I used would be, like I used rock-wool, well I didn't use all of my rock-wool in these speakers so I pro-rated the price). The thing to remember though is that a pair of speakers with the same qualities could easily go for $3000 (I honestly am not that into the market so I could be a bit off; most everything I do is DIY so it is tough to figure a price comparison not being familiar with current manufacture's prices)

EDIT/Note: keep in mind I used a lot of 'exotic' materials in my speakers, sorbothane, line-x, steel enclosures, and the rear-mounting/decoupling system probably make up ~$280-300 of the price I mentioned earlier. Using MDF I could see enclosures built for ~$40-80, maybe less if you already own the board

the thing is, as far as my mid's are concerned I am completely happy and would not change anything on them; which is not a very easy state to achieve in the DIY world, every time you finish a project you inevitably end up learning something new which gives you new ideas; so throughout time there probably will be a lot of 'upgrades', it is that way with most hobbies; so in the long run it can save money to spend a little more and make sure you get exactly what you want in the first place

**Yad** · **10-31-09, 12:02 PM**

Matt is right.
But if we shall talk about speakers, that you could buy, i'll tell that (here in russia) i ve never heard "world-wide branded" speakers (with the price less than 1000 Euros) which could satisfy my ear-taste.

I really liked B&W 800 D series, but the sound of CM series made me nervous and angry.

I was disappointed a lot with DALI IKON 6

I also was amazed with DYNAUDIO's BM5A, BM15A (studio) and was dissapointed with their most part of "domestic" speakers

But note, those speakers are close ore much more than $1000.

That's why i can suggest a 1000$ as a flag-point. DIY speakers with the same sound (>2000$) will be cost not less than 600-700 $.

By another hand, many of my friends are not agree with me. And they are enjoy with some chip multimedia speakers ))) Guys told me, that i'm a @sound-crazied@ ))))

P.S. Matt's speakers (if they will be made with a "cool-brand" manufacturer) will be probably cost more than $3000. ))))) Especially in back-loaded horn enclosure.

fschris , Do youhave a shop & some tools ?

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 12:33 PM**

I agree with Yad, the thing is, you will at some point need to decide if you are 'seeking perfection' or if you want to save some money
-if you are trying to both, then I would say it is likely you will be an "upgrader" which is just fine, but if that is you then id say spend the money now and save some down the road

-if you are just "seeking perfection" then you need to concentrate on *research* look at every sort of feature and technology that companies offer and pick what you feel will help the most and incorporate them into your speaker (I fit in this category, I do a lot more reading/planning than actual building, though I do upgrade when I have many new ideas I want to use/build)

-if you are just trying to save money (and get good quality) then you should research (especially since this is your first project, consider every possible feature because there typically *is* a best way to do something, but knowing what that way is usually comes with hands on experience) but if you can't see yourself in the future reading about driver decoupling or some other uncommon way of doing things and thinking ' I wish I knew about that when I built my speakers' then it may not be as beneficial to try and learn about all the various methods of doing things, but I still would definitely try and find out all you can about the methods/materials you plan to use so that you can get the best possible build quality

**evilskillit** · **10-31-09, 01:38 PM**

Well Chris you can save money with DIY, assuming a few things. You need to already have some tools and a bit of know how, and you need to have expensive tastes in speakers. If you're happy with a Aiwa $300 home theater in a box from the local Best Buy then you should buy that because its impossible to beat the price of those things, they're just made too cheaply. But if you want nice, or really nice audiophile class speakers you can build speakers that sound like $1000, $2500 or even $5000+ for under $500-$1000.

For or around $250 I would recommend the Tritrix kit I linked to you. It is a 6" wide floor standing speaker with good output that will play down into the 40hz range when built in the transmission line configuration. If you google Tritrix and read what people say about them they are very well received everywhere. Everyone likes them. At Dayton DIY Competition 2007 they took first place in the budget category. I'm sure they would not disappoint you for the price and they fit your criteria quite well.

Now if you want something better than the Tritrix allow me to make a few sugguestions.

The Cryolites - If you build these as a ported floor standing design they will have very very nice mids and highs and respectable bass down to 50hz probably. They fit your budget and meet your requirements.

Thunder Sticks - May fit your bill as a tall skinny floor standing speaker with good full range.

Now if you want to spend a bit more there are a lot of nice designs for under $600

Go Here -Look at the Natalie P, RSTMWW and Statements

or go to

Romans Site - Where he has plenty of good designs that run all over the place in price. I built his microbes and love them. They don't have that much bass but with a pair of subs I love them!

And theres plenty more info out there but this should get you started. Btw, I recommend that to get started out you build someone else's design for this reason.

Btw Chester, when he says Full Range Speaker I think he just means a speaker capable of lows without the help of subwoofers using multiple drivers. I don't think he means a single full range driver like you think.

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 02:00 PM**

Ohh, evilskillit; your probably right

sometimes I forget that other people don't define 'fullrange' like i do

**Yad** · **10-31-09, 05:17 PM**

evilskillit

very interesting and useful articles with speakers! I do like ribbons as a tweeter.
It could imagine, that it will be nice to use some true ribbon with Chester's wide-range. Maybe with the 1-st order crossover network with film-and foil inductors and MUNDORF supreme capacitors... What do you think, Chester ?

**Yad** · **10-31-09, 05:22 PM**

By the way,true fullranges have the best phase response. But the worth Doppler-distortion...
I think they are for not very loud, but for very comfortable listening. They should perfectly show a music space

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 05:30 PM**

Well, it would definitely be fun to play with; though a primary reason I am using full range speakers is to have as 'point source' of sound as I can so using a crossover and a second transducer would defeat that a little

edit: I have my speakers crossed over at 80 hz (a wavelength is ~14 ft) so the difference in distance between the sub, speakers and listener has a negligible impact on the phase coherency (rockin' 24 db/oct crossovers so there is a 360 degree phase shift)

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 05:42 PM**

the amount of dopler distortion is dependent on the volume; the larger the displacement the more distortion

however with a complex *music* signal I would consider getting a coherent waveform (minimizing phase cancellation/addition) to be a bigger issue

Rod Elliot (measurement and graphs): http://sound.westhost.com/doppler.htm
Linkwitz (math proof): http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm#J

edit/note: I do think that crossovers (and tweeters) have a place in audio, just that they are more necessary when you are trying to produce high pressures (lots of driver displacement)

**Yad** · **10-31-09, 05:43 PM**

http://www.duevel.com/Produkte/E_Sirius.shtml 2 way, but very close to the "point- source"

**fschris** · **10-31-09, 05:45 PM**

Thanks for all the info and ideas and what to think about

I kind of like the look of these and what they would offer in terms of sound.... what do you think?

rjbaudio.c0m ... Extremis

**evilskillit** · **10-31-09, 05:54 PM**

The Extremis are a very neat design. Originally I wanted to make the Extremis for my first speaker. However the woofer that is used in those speakers has been discontinued. You would have to ask someone who can design crossovers like Mr RJB himself, or someone else to adapt it to work with the CSS SDX7 woofer, or the Exodus Audio Anarchy. Any other high displacement long stroke 6.5" woofer would be similar but would not be a drop in replacement and would require that the crossover be adjusted. That would be a good one tho, and if you made it into a tall skinny floor standing unit, if you wanted, it could have even slightly more bass.

Btw Chris, some day I want to see what all the fuss is about with full range drivers. I want to buy one of the affordable fostex drivers, something in the $50-$70 range and build ported cabinets or transmission line cabinets or horn cabinets and see what all interest is. If I like them then that will rock. If not then I guess I won't be out very much money as I could probably sell them for what I paid for them.

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 08:37 PM**

Yeah those duevel's look pretty cool; I actually had an idea to do something like that when I was younger (before I had seen the concept done before)... Hope to play around with such a design in the future

the only thing that I could see being an issue is the vertical axis frequency response

**fschris** · **10-31-09, 09:38 PM**

Matt... I found a pair of speakers close to those Peerless on ebay brand new.... Peerless 830344. I have the data sheet on them as well. Can you advise about building cross overs or should I buy a pair pre made? BTW... I must have mis-spoke when i said "full range" I guess a 2 way system with some basic speakers are different than " full range " speakers.

**Chester** · **10-31-09, 09:54 PM**

Hey, I typically use digital crossovers (since I do a lot of EQ work too) so I cannot advise on build a crossover; from what I understand it is better to use 'active' crossovers (each voice coil has its own amplifier channel), I know it is good to get the crossover out of the range of frequencies the ear is most sensitive too

, if you could give a link to the auction and or the data sheet I would be glad to take a look at the specs though

**fschris** · **10-31-09, 10:27 PM**

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/peerless/830344.pdf

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