New Products, your input needed!

[Brian Bunge]

I've posted in my News sub-forum about some of the products that I plan to bring to market soon but I also wanted input from others here before I finalize anything. So here goes.

So I'd like to know what kind of products people are most interested in. Would you guys be more interested in smaller, slimmer types of speakers such as the more European "Lifestyle" products many companies are offering these days? Or would you prefer larger enclosure based speakers with better bass extension? In today's HT environment I'm leaning more towards speakers with small footprints in sealed enclosures with decent extension down into the 80Hz region. In some cases the enclosures might require porting to get some extension down to or just below 80Hz, but this is really just an issue for smaller driver based speakers.

Also, would most of you be willing to pay a couple of hundred dollars more for a bookshelf based speaker that's basically built into a tower cabinet with a sealed chamber below that can be filled with sand for better stability? To picture this, think of some of the smaller Totem towers. A small tower is going to take up just as much floor space as a small monitor on a stand, and, in my humble opinion, is more aesthetically pleasing.

And lastly, how many of you are really interested in custom finishes? Would you rather see 2-3 standard finishes and nothing else at a standard price, or would you also be interested in custom finishes, which also adds to the cost of the finished product based on the added cost of more exotic veneers.

Please let me know how you guys feel about any of this. As I get a better idea of what you guys are interested in I may decide to put up a poll with more specific questions.

[Otto]

Hi Brian,

I'm not in any market for speakers right now, but for me:

Not necessarily smaller speakers, but more accurate speakers. You're on-target about bookshelf/small towers that go solidly to at least 80 Hz range -- I'd say go even lower. Personally, I've never been very interested in the "lifestyle" type mini-satellites stuff. They just don't have that presence and punch. However, I totally undersand their target market, and you may do well to offer something at this level -- affordable and small enough to meet the WAF. There are tons of people that want this, and if you have a competetive product, I do believe people will buy it.

As to paying extra for a bookshelf in a tower's body? Sure. You're right in that it's going to take up the same floor space, and the buyer will save on the cost of stands, so it may be a wash on price. Make it look cool somehow. There are so many tall slim boxes out there!

Different woods? Absolutely. It'll cost me more, but give me the choice! Everyone's got "black ash" and cherry and maple, but where's rosewood, flamed maple or koa? They're not speakers, but here's a creative use of wood: JETGuitars.jpg.

Anyway, just some comments. Best of luck!

[Brian Bunge]

Otto,

Accuracy is definitely what I'm going for. I always shoot for a very flat frequency response. I do not like speakers very much that exhibit the BBC dip in the presence range. They may give you a nice, warm sound, but also change the tone of instruments. I want a snare drum to sound like a snare drum. Not like a tom.

The Dayton Audio RS line of drivers have been independently measured to be some of the most accurate, lowest distortion drivers available. For this reason, they are the driver of choice for my new products. My huge 3-way towers are some of the nicest sounding speakers I've heard. Great accuracy and dynamics. I think a line designed around these drivers have the potential to be some serious giant killers.

I'd love to play with some wild veneer/color choices and see how people respond to them. Obviously the down side is that a quality sheet of maple or cherry veneer costs me about $60/sheet whereas some of the more exotic veneers are $250+/sheet. Now if someone is willing to pay that difference then I'm more than willing to use those species, but it's not something I could keep in stock for only a couple of customers.

[Otto]

Brian Bunge wrote:

Otto,The Dayton Audio RS line of drivers have been independently measured to be some of the most accurate, lowest distortion drivers available. For this reason, they are the driver of choice for my new products. My huge 3-way towers are some of the nicest sounding speakers I've heard. Great accuracy and dynamics. I think a line designed around these drivers have the potential to be some serious giant killers.

Sounds good. I'm considering a DIY project, probably starting with a sub. I'll keep the Dayton drivers in mind, especially if I do a L/C/R project. Here's a little of an off-topic question -- where do I start to design a sub enclosure? Right now I have an M&K MX-125 (I think that's the model) that uses 2 12" drivers. I'd like to recycle those drivers into a different cabinet, using an external amplifier, a BFD and my pre/pro's bass management. Guess I'm looking for a suggestion on how to start the box design process. Of course, I currently do not know the specs on the drivers, but I may be able to determine that information. Also open to buying brand new drivers if that's a better route.

Brian Bunge wrote:

I'd love to play with some wild veneer/color choices and see how people respond to them. Obviously the down side is that a quality sheet of maple or cherry veneer costs me about $60/sheet whereas some of the more exotic veneers are $250+/sheet. Now if someone is willing to pay that difference then I'm more than willing to use those species, but it's not something I could keep in stock for only a couple of customers.

Oh, yeah, I understand that! I really like to see people like you offering the option, though. I'm working with a guy to do some cabinetry work in my bathroom, and it's all custom. I have to pay extra for it, but it's all mine.

Looks like you're doing good work. Keep it up!

[Sonnie]

I agree that you should try to have the speakers extend down to 40-50hz instead of 80ish.

I like tall and slender speakers myself... I think those are more appealing... deep is okay.

For those bookshelf built into a stand type speakers you might consider something like Atlantic Technologies does. You could offer the matching box stand as an option. When fitted together it looks like one tall speaker. This would enable folks to later add on the stands if they wanted... that is if you could get the color matched up after the fact.

Have you ever considered ribbon mid panels and/or the FST (Focal Spiral Tweeter)? I know finding the right ribbon panel can be a challenge from what I've read.

[Bent]

Brian, I'm not exactly aquanted with doing custom speakers at all, but I certainly have to agree that extension lower than 80 Hz is necesary.

My Paradigm Mini Monitors have a spec sheet extension lower than 60 hz (I call on that one, they have a single 6" midbass) and when I cross them at 80 hz, they sound good when integrated with my 15" DIY sub, but I can always locate the sub... When I cross them at 60 Hz, the sub can't be localized anymore, but they start to sound fatigued waaaaayyy sooner.

[Brian Bunge]

Guys,

Keep in mind that I was talking about a -3dB point around 80Hz. That along with a crossover point of 80Hz would give you a pretty steep rolloff. I still prefer a flat response down to 40-50Hz for my own use, but I can accomodate larger speakers than many people out there. Hence the question about going with an F3 around 80Hz. I'd rather have a 60Hz crossover point as well but, again, this may not work for a lot of people.

The biggest issue I've found with smaller speakers is that more and more houses these days are built with large open floor plans and small monitors just end up lacking in the midbass area, making it difficult to blend well with a subwoofer. For this reason, I'm really leaning towards relatively small 3-way towers with multiple bass drivers to increase efficiency and dynamic capabilities. Powered towers might even be a possiblity, but that really starts to get expensive.

Otto, you really need to get the parameters of the driver to build a new enclosure around them. And yes, it's possible you could do better with new drivers. Either way, I'd be happy to help you design something when you are ready.

Also, the pic of those guitars got me thinking. I'm a rock fan first and foremost, putting a high priority on dynamics, but still like an accurate speaker that really brings the music to life. Maybe a line of speakers with some of those wild style finishes would be a hit with the rock fans out there like myself. Surely there's still plenty of us out there, right?

Sonnie, I've never really contemplated ribbon midpanels or tweeters. I've heard a few that sounded nice, but nothing that really wowed me. But then again I've only heard a few. Also, I've heard that some of the ribbons can be very fragile and I'm just not sure that I want to deal with those issues. I'd sure hate to have a customer end up with problems due to a faulty ribbon right out of the box.

[khellandros66]

I love my bipolar towers and I think after a listen if you agree I think this design would be great.

Also a

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design with two 7in mids and with two powered 10in woofers 250w RMS power would be cool.

Fo more accuracy some

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using like four 7in and two 4in plus a ring radiator or ribbon tweeter.

~Bob

[laserman]

Hi Brian,

It takes a very self-confident person to make himself accessible and vulnerable by asking for input on a potential a new design.

I agree with the posters who said the optimum lower end extension should be around 40 Hz. I’m also a big fan of MTM designs, which incorporate a small, as reasonably possible, face width and a depth of no greater than say 16 inches. These can be sealed line transmission or front dual port designed speakers.

The idea of powered side firing subs in the same enclosures has never really sounded balanced to my ears/brain in most listening experiences. However, the speakers that work best in this application are the ones where the subs are in a separate enclosure upon which the midrange driver(S) and tweeter are sitting, in a separate enclosure. Have you ever toyed with the idea of using an open baffle design for the top end??

[Phil M]

laserman wrote:

Hi Brian,

Have you ever toyed with the idea of using an open baffle design for the top end??

Brian, I've educated myself on IB for subs - can you help us understand IB's for the top end?

[Brian Bunge]

Phil,

Sorry, I must have missed this earlier this week when I wasn't getting email notifications. Are you talking about a dipole design? I've never done any dipole designs, but from what I understand you get a really nice holographic effect, and most if not all of the room interactions are eliminated. Of course you have to pull them out from the walls in order for them to work properly.

The downside is that in order to get decent SPL's you need 4x the Vd to get the same SPL's as a single driver in an enclosure.

If you've got other questions please let me know. I'll do my best to answer them.

[JCD]

Totally missed this thread earlier, but if you're still looking for input:

In order of importance for me:

1. Accuracy, i.e., flat response
2. Imaging
3. Custom skins -- big reason why I did my DIY project was that I could cover them up with something different
4. Sensitivity of the speaker design
5. Size -- I'd prefer smaller, but not at the expense of one or two. And I'd rather have a bookshelf than a tower, so paying an extra $200 is moot in my case

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

JCD

[jagman]

Brian... have you been working on anything since this thread died off? I like the idea of a the WWWWMTM with the 6" and 4" Daytons and a good quality tweeter (possibly a ribbon). You could also do a WWMTMWW for the center and something interesting for surrounds. I like the new omnidirectional surrounds Danny at GR-R is selling... maybe you could do something similar with the Daytons.

[Brian Bunge]

I really haven't had much time to work on anything new. I still need to finish my own personal center channel and surrounds. I'm hoping after my wedding next weekend I'll have more time to work on things. The cooler weather will help things along as well.

I've been toying with the idea of going with the BG Neo 3 tweeter possibly in a TMWWWW design using the RS52 midrange and maybe the RS 6" drivers for woofers. The only real drawback is the mid wouldn't really work for a slim center channel. If I decided on a design like this it might likely be more for a true 2-channel system. Otherwise, it might be best to stick with the 4" drivers for mids in a WWMTMWW design.

I'm not sure which GR surrounds you're referring to. Is it the A/V-1RS surround?

[jagman]

Congrats for the big day... defintely something worth more of your time. The surround I was referring to is the AV-O and O-3. If you haven't lately, check out his circle at AC.