Warpdrv - Twin Endtables 15" TC-2K Build Thread

**WillyD** · **09-22-07, 02:56 PM**

Thats the beauty of DIY though, the sky really is the limit. You're doing these enclosures your way.

**Warpdrv** · **09-22-07, 03:08 PM**

Yeah baby... the sky's the limit, and I think I might end up hitting the dam sky... heheheheh those prices are without the freakin granite... can't wait to see what comes up in that dept....

****Edit****
Found my answer....

**Warpdrv** · **09-26-07, 08:08 PM**

Well I knew when I saw this when I walked out my door, that it was going to be a good day....

Because after that, I got my TC-2K's some new friends....
A nice pair of QSC 2502 amps to go along with my project.... Aren't they pretty...?

Bridged to produce a meager 2500 watts per driver..... Hmmmmm

Also got in touch with my pretty Granite girl today, and she has a boneyard of Granite throw aways that will be to my picking... Doin lunch with that little hottie next week to get an idea of what I get to choose from... said she would work me out a sweet deal... Woo Hooo Another step closer to my project !!!!!

**brent_s** · **09-26-07, 09:41 PM**

Warp, maybe I reread the thread too fast, but are you putting in a dedicated 30 amp circuit for each amp? I would think that's the minium you'll need for 2500 watts + efficiency losses. A 15 amp circuit's only good for about 1800 watts at the wall, 20 amp is about 2400 watts.

-Brent

**WillyD** · **09-26-07, 10:13 PM**

Those drivers and amps look ready.

Quote:

Warp, maybe I reread the thread too fast, but are you putting in a dedicated 30 amp circuit for each amp? I would think that's the minium you'll need for 2500 watts + efficiency losses. A 15 amp circuit's only good for about 1800 watts at the wall, 20 amp is about 2400 watts.

Hey Brent,

Doesn't that primarily apply to RMS? Warp should never be sending a full power signal to either sub during use.

**Warpdrv** · **09-26-07, 10:23 PM**

Hey brent... actually.... shortly after I bought this house, and I decided on setting up my HT system in my Great Room, I ran all new wiring... including 2-cat6 runs, for streaming from my 2- terabyte servers, dual runs of RG-6 for my HD DVR Dish and 2 - 10ga dedicated runs, both which are set on 20 amp breakers and can be upgraded to 30 amp breakers if need be... But I doubt I will be running these at max output... My SVS subs output quite a bit already, but Im really looking forward to the boost in clarity of SQ from these 2K drivers.. I'm pretty sure I got it covered here, but appreciate the thoughts on the capability side of all this...

**brent_s** · **09-26-07, 10:51 PM**

Quote:

WillyD wrote:

Hey Brent,

Doesn't that primarily apply to RMS? Warp should never be sending a full power signal to either sub during use.

It applies to whatever wattage is being drawn from the outlet. At full rate output, 2500 watts would draw 3375 watts assuming 65% efficiency (typical for class A/B). Actually, even 30 amps wouldn't cover that...limit is 2900ish. So yes, if WarpD never tries to deliver more than 1560 watts (2400 - 35% loss) from a single QSC on a dedicated 20 amp circuit, it shouldn't trip the circuit under those theoretical conditions. I realize he's not likely to routinely ask for full power, but didn't want him to be surprised if he started winding 'em up and suddenly something goes poof, especially if both amps were sharing the same circuit or even one shares a circuit with other gear.

In theory, my Adcom 5 channel + NAD 2 channel could trip the circuit they're own. They also share this circuit with the preamp, dvd player, front projector, some lights, etc. In reality, it's never been a problem. However, I did manage to trip a circuit once when I was listening to music while trying to vacuum the room.

-Brent

**brent_s** · **09-26-07, 10:53 PM**

Quote:

Warpdrv wrote:

My SVS subs output quite a bit already, but Im really looking forward to the boost in clarity of SQ from these 2K drivers.. I'm pretty sure I got it covered here, but appreciate the thoughts on the capability side of all this...

The BASH amps are more like 90% efficient so you can send a higher percentage of the available juice to the drivers.

-Brent

**WillyD** · **09-26-07, 11:00 PM**

Quote:

brent_s wrote:

It applies to whatever wattage is being drawn from the outlet. At full rate output, 2500 watts would draw 3375 watts assuming 65% efficiency (typical for class A/B). Actually, even 30 amps wouldn't cover that...limit is 2900ish. So yes, if WarpD never tries to deliver more than 1560 watts (2400 - 35% loss) from a single QSC on a dedicated 20 amp circuit, it shouldn't trip the circuit under those theoretical conditions. I realize he's not likely to routinely ask for full power, but didn't want him to be surprised if he started winding 'em up and suddenly something goes poof, especially if both amps were sharing the same circuit or even one shares a circuit with other gear.

In theory, my Adcom 5 channel + NAD 2 channel could trip the circuit they're own. They also share this circuit with the preamp, dvd player, front projector, some lights, etc. In reality, it's never been a problem. However, I did manage to trip a circuit once when I was listening to music while trying to vacuum the room.

-Brent

I thought I had read that circuits can briefly handle a load a bit higher than their rating? Here is where I read it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post11716906

And here is the AC Mains current info for the PLX2 amps (and the particular one Warp purchased, are class H):

**Warpdrv** · **09-26-07, 11:13 PM**

Hey guys... there are 3 seperate circuits in play here.... 2 dedicated sub amp only 20 amp circuits (each having the ability for upgrade to 30amp) and the rest of my stuff on the 3rd 20amp circuit. I have no concern whatsoever in power delivery here...
The biggest draw on the extra circuit would come from my Rotel 1095 Amp...

I got that same listing with the amps... 25amps at full sine current... Im thinkin I won't be runnin a whole lot of sine waves; I think I'll be safe...

Woo Hoo....

**WillyD** · **09-27-07, 12:10 AM**

Quote:

I have no concern whatsoever in power delivery here...

Word. Neither do I.

I am just looking forward to you building these two subs.

**brent_s** · **09-28-07, 09:55 PM**

To stay OT just a bit longer...

Will, I assume you're referring to the 125% comment in the AVS thread. I've double and triple checked and can't find anything to support that...looking at both residential electrical codes and single pole circuit breaker manufacturers spec sheets. I think I may have figured out how he got that idea, though. Breakers are supposed to be able to run at 80% load until the cows come home...12 amps for a 15 amp, 16 for 20, etc. If you consider that 80% number as the duty cycle, then it takes a 25% increase to reach the max rating. Said another way, the peak rating is 125% of the steady state rating.

Two things trip a typical residential breaker, heat and peak current. The peak current is as instantaneous as possible once the max load is exceeded. That 25% margin above the 80% duty cycle is where the thermal protection comes in. As you run the circuit above that 80% number, the circuit heats up...run it long enough and it trips to avoid melting insulation which only leads to a bad smell if you're lucky.

A temperature trip is what happened in my vacuum meets A/V system example...it didn't trip immediately upon starting the vacuum motor where the greatest power draw happens, but actually ran for several minutes before protecting.

WarpD sounds like he's got it under control. It just got my attention when he made the statement about sending 2500 watts to each driver. Without knowing someones listening habits, room size, and power needed to drive the chosen alignment to that level, he may well have been expecting to use the full available power. As it is, he's limited to about half of that even with one amp used on each 20 amp circuit...should still be way more than enough for most folks.

From that QSC chart, it looks like their probably something like class H...25 amp draw for 2500 watts output works out to 80% efficiency.

-Brent

**Warpdrv** · **09-28-07, 10:13 PM**

Hey Brent... I never discourage discussion......

Well, with those #'s I should probably change out those 20 amp breakers for the 30's.... But guess what I will do first... I'll test out the limits of the 20 amp setup and see how she flies.... That is the reason I always go overkill, which is why I ran the 10ga to begin with... Just in case... That way I have the flexibility to make corrections...

My listening habits all depend on who is around my house. I love the scary stuff and will push it to the limits... which seems to rattle my house in places that I need to lock down, just with the SVS subs... The people around me don't really care for stuff that loud, so I tend to tame it down when they are around.. so really heavy use won't be a constant... but it sure will be fun to have it on tap...

**WillyD** · **09-28-07, 10:42 PM**

Thanks for the info Brent.

Quote:

From that QSC chart, it looks like their probably something like class H

Yeah...they are Class H. Only two of the PLX amps are AB.

**penngray** · **09-30-07, 10:02 PM**

I have my equipment on a 20A circuit for all of the following 3 Outlaw 2200 monoblocks, 1 Dayton 1000W and an Outlaw 950. Never had a problem in 10 months. I have had a New Years eve party with very loud thumping

btw, Warpdrv I replied to your PM over on AVSForum about 2 more TC2Ks.

**WillyD** · **10-14-07, 07:41 AM**

Any updates?

**Warpdrv** · **10-14-07, 01:22 PM**

So far I have been just getting things together and organized to get started..
I have yet to buy my wood..... But in the meantime, Im acquiring more tools and equipment to start the job... Bought a bunch of 36" & 48" clamps http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...4d2015_300.jpg from Homey Depot, Rigid Jointer..... And I'm building a Workbench in the basement for the project....

I'll probably end up doing the cabinet in Cherry in 15/16" or 1" thickness...
And I upgraded the size of my box to 320L.... By the time I was finished with the measurements, these things will already be too big(tall) for end tables... Upon completion, I will relocate the sub placement from by the chair to underneath my left surround as suggested. So I increased the height to accommodate the larger volume...

Picked out the Granite that Im going to use for the top... its going to run me about $750.00 for both boxes at 1" thick finished with 1/2" bevel... Cherry wood will be a touch over the $1K mark....

I also Picked up my 2" aluminum bar stock that I will be using for the legs that I have to cut and machine on the lathe...

Then Polish for the prettiness factor...

All said and done, I will probably be in the $3.5K range for both of these subs with everything included, amps, drivers, and materials... not including tools for the job... I could have gone the other way and bought a pair of SVS Ultra's for roughly the same price... but I think I'll be far more pleased with the performance here...

I need to make a descision on what I should do for the port, if I should go with the PSP or I should fabricate my own within the enclosure... what do you think WillyD?

Are the PSP's good enough..?

**WillyD** · **10-14-07, 10:16 PM**

Quote:

what do you think WillyD?

I'd say go with the PSPs, but to be honest, the flare on them isn't as good as one could make with a decent router bit and they aren't cheap. You sound more than capable of the work, so I'd recommend just fabricating your own. It'll cost less and be just as good if not better.

Collo's method is common and simple.

Quote:

All said and done, I will probably be in the $3.5K range for both of these subs with everything included, amps, drivers, and materials... not including tools for the job... I could have gone the other way and bought a pair of SVS Ultra's for roughly the same price... but I think I'll be far more pleased with the performance here...

Ah, but you're definitely going with totally custom enclosures. SVS wouldn't have given you that option. Granite tops...nice. And yes, you'll definitely have better overall performance here I suspect.

**Brian Bunge** · **11-12-07, 06:58 PM**

If you have not started these cabinets yet I would STRONGLY discourage that you use hardwood only for the sides of the box. Wood expands and contracts over time and is not very dimensionally stable. Therefore, you could risk the glue joints giving out over time. Using it in a high-powered subwoofer would increase the risks even further due to the enormous pressure inside the box.

I'd much rather see you build the entire box out of baltic birch or MDF and then add hardwood to the vertical sides. I'd use some sort of adhesive such as some of the various construction adhesives to attach the solid wood. You could use wood glue but you still would have some risk of the solid wood cracking over time, but not nearly as likely as if they were the only wood used for the side panels.

**Warpdrv** · **11-14-07, 03:18 PM**

Thanks for your concern and warnings here Brian... construction has already begun, and will continue... Apparently I will be the guinea pig here, and I will walk this lonely road alone...

I'm aware of the risks, and will take steps to do everything in my power to work against them.

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