4 18" 5400's and 8 passives "WOW!"

**robertcharles123** · **07-04-09, 12:10 AM**

Quote:

Fabricator wrote:

yep, better pics.

do you have them "in place" ?

Close. Maybe going to move them a little forward, but basically they have to stay pretty much where they are. Too much to move and the floor is strongest where they are at the moment.

**SteveCallas** · **07-04-09, 01:11 AM**

$19.3k on subs?

Wow. This is a big thread - do you have any pictures of the rest of your system in it? If so, what page?

**robertcharles123** · **07-04-09, 01:39 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

$19.3k on subs?

Wow. This is a big thread - do you have any pictures of the rest of your system in it? If so, what page?

I need to work on getting the pictures centralized. All of the pictures I have are on my photobucket account. I need to learn how to put one of those links to it in the thread.

Here is my new additions and one side of my rack.

**robertcharles123** · **07-04-09, 01:43 AM**

front stage

**robertcharles123** · **07-04-09, 01:52 AM**

An assortment of stuff from my photobucket

**Sonnie** · **07-04-09, 07:10 AM**

You can use our image gallery. Create your own category like I did for Cedar Creek Cinema.

That looks like a LOT of subs you have there. Your response should be awesome!

**Fabricator** · **07-04-09, 08:22 AM**

nice setup and much better pic quality.

**robertcharles123** · **07-04-09, 12:12 PM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

You can use our image gallery. Create your own category like I did for Cedar Creek Cinema.

That looks like a LOT of subs you have there. Your response should be awesome!

I loaded a couple of pictures in the gallery. How do you get the gallery to stick to your posts here?

Thanks,

Robert

**SteveCallas** · **07-04-09, 03:17 PM**

robert, looks like two speakers and a subwoofer for each main. How is it all set up? Do all three get used?

**robertcharles123** · **07-04-09, 04:28 PM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

robert, looks like two speakers and a subwoofer for each main. How is it all set up? Do all three get used?

Currently, the mains have what you see and it is bi amped with the subs 50 and under( just put a high pass at 20) and the highs 50 to 20k. The 2 top cabs are daisy chained to each other. Side surrounds are 50 and down for the subs and the highs are 50 to 20k. All of these are bi amped and using active crossovers. Soon, alll channels will be bi amped-includung the center and driveracks will be used for crossovers. It is a project that won't end. I am really happy with the perfromance as it is. I am just cleaning it up the way I want it to be.

I plan to use just the large cabs in the future for the right and left and move the small cabs on the LR channels to the rear 7.1 channels that % am setting up currently.

Thanks,

Robert

**SteveCallas** · **07-04-09, 05:32 PM**

So are the LMS subs only for LFE duty? I'm still a little confused on how this will all work together. Are the subs under the mains going to disappear now that you have the LMS subs? I'd hope you let the LMS subs play up higher than 50hz too - Ilkka's testing showed them to be flat and clean well above that, they'll be much more capable than the mains.

Any worries of cancellation at your seat having two speakers next to each other playing the exact same signal?

**robertcharles123** · **07-04-09, 05:51 PM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

So are the LMS subs only for LFE duty? I'm still a little confused on how this will all work together. Are the subs under the mains going to disappear now that you have the LMS subs? I'd hope you let the LMS subs play up higher than 50hz too - Ilkka's testing showed them to be flat and clean well above that, they'll be much more capable than the mains.

Any worries of cancellation at your seat having two speakers next to each other playing the exact same signal?

1. All of my channels will be completely full range. They are/were receiving full spectrum no HPF down low. Now, since I have the LFE in place, I put a 20Hz HPF on each channel for protection.

2. All channels will be bi amped with active crossovers.

3. The LFE is currently set at 80 Hz because of the Integra settings. That is soon to change. I tried the setting to 120 and all sorts of variations and I did not like it. 50 Hz seemed to be the best setting for my situation. My old processor was working fantastic set at 50 Hz and it had all sorts of other possibilities, but I liked it set that way. The new Integra 9.9 is not as flexible it seems, so I am trying to get the rack built and use what I have currently and work new things in as I get further ahead.

Any better? Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Robert

2.

**SteveCallas** · **07-04-09, 11:19 PM**

Is what you're calling a 20hz hpf you setting the processor to redirect bass below 20hz from the speaker channels to the LMS subs, or is it really just a highpass filter?

I may be misunderstanding how you have things setup, but it sounds like these ultra powerful and capable LMS subs are getting very little signal to play with. LFE <50hz is a pretty restricted range in the grand scheme of things

**robertcharles123** · **07-05-09, 01:17 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

Is what you're calling a 20hz hpf you setting the processor to redirect bass below 20hz from the speaker channels to the LMS subs, or is it really just a highpass filter?

I may be misunderstanding how you have things setup, but it sounds like these ultra powerful and capable LMS subs are getting very little signal to play with. LFE <50hz is a pretty restricted range in the grand scheme of things

The active crossovers being used- driverack and peavy at this point allow HPF on the channels connected to it- fully adjustablle with crossover points and slopes. Without the LFE channel, the system has tremendous low end output. Until I built the new cabinets, I never had an LFE channel, and I really had way more than enough low end output. I would say that my sound without the LFE was like the sound and feel like the Danley at the GTG a couple of months ago and everyone loved that it seems. Now with the LFE, it is at another level altogether. I have tried higher crossover points for the LFE, but I really do not appreciate such a sound- more of a sound than a feel for me. I want low frequency output-chest impact and pants flap. That is what I get at the 50-60 cross for the LFE. The JBL's actually gave quite the hair raising experience without the LFE. I do not know what is being redirected to the LFE, but I am not purposely trying to redirect any main or surround channel info to the LFE- No need to do so. I do not know how to explain it any better. I am just experimenting with what I have. I am planning on having a Sub GTG this year sometime, and I hope most of my system is complete so that people who are better suited at calibration are able to offer opinions. I would be more than happy to allow any chnages that would create better performance. I am open to any ideas.

Thanks,

Robert

**SteveCallas** · **07-05-09, 07:49 PM**

I'm just trying to figure things out to see if I can help. It sounds like you may be losing out a fair amount of bass.

Those pro JBL subs can't do much below 30hz, so any low bass from the main speaker channels is either absent or severely rolled off. Don't underestimate how much <30hz bass in recorded in the mains, center, and even sometimes the surrounds. On top of that, by allowing those pro subs to act in tandum with the speaker channels, you have to be getting a lot of cancellation and uneven response at your seat. It's much easier to place one or two subs in an ideal location and optimize things rather than have a subwoofer at each predetermined speaker location and hope for the best.

At the same time, you now have this monstrous pair of subwoofers getting barely any signal - if they could talk, they would be begging for more input. I know it's good to have headroom, but seriously, if the subs are only seeing LFE <50hz, they really aren't seeing a whole lot at all.

I would urge you to consider taking a look at redirecting all bass below 50hz from each speaker channel to these LMS subwoofers in addition to the LFE channel - and the LFE channel really should be the entire 3-120hz signal. If you only send LFE below 50hz to the dedicated LFE subs, then the LFE from 50-120hz is completely lost and not being reproduced in your system at all. That's a fair amount of information - it will give much more detail to the bass instead of just room shaking and rumbling.

I don't know what processor you are using, but it should have the flexibility to allow you to set each speaker channel to small and use a 50hz crossove to the LMS subwoofers. Then make sure that LFE is set to these subs as well.

Anyone else want to back me up here? It just seems like he's losing out on a fair amount of bass reproduction. With a near $20k pair of subs, I'd want to make sure I'm getting every last drop of bass there is.

**brucek** · **07-05-09, 08:01 PM**

Quote:

Anyone else want to back me up here?

I completely back you up Steve, but I also think you'll find that the OP may be confusing the word "LFE" with "Sub channel".

brucek

**robertcharles123** · **07-06-09, 12:31 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

I'm just trying to figure things out to see if I can help. It sounds like you may be losing out a fair amount of bass.

Those pro JBL subs can't do much below 30hz, so any low bass from the main speaker channels is either absent or severely rolled off. Don't underestimate how much <30hz bass in recorded in the mains, center, and even sometimes the surrounds. On top of that, by allowing those pro subs to act in tandum with the speaker channels, you have to be getting a lot of cancellation and uneven response at your seat. It's much easier to place one or two subs in an ideal location and optimize things rather than have a subwoofer at each predetermined speaker location and hope for the best.

At the same time, you now have this monstrous pair of subwoofers getting barely any signal - if they could talk, they would be begging for more input. I know it's good to have headroom, but seriously, if the subs are only seeing LFE <50hz, they really aren't seeing a whole lot at all.

I would urge you to consider taking a look at redirecting all bass below 50hz from each speaker channel to these LMS subwoofers in addition to the LFE channel - and the LFE channel really should be the entire 3-120hz signal. If you only send LFE below 50hz to the dedicated LFE subs, then the LFE from 50-120hz is completely lost and not being reproduced in your system at all. That's a fair amount of information - it will give much more detail to the bass instead of just room shaking and rumbling.

I don't know what processor you are using, but it should have the flexibility to allow you to set each speaker channel to small and use a 50hz crossove to the LMS subwoofers. Then make sure that LFE is set to these subs as well.

Anyone else want to back me up here? It just seems like he's losing out on a fair amount of bass reproduction. With a near $20k pair of subs, I'd want to make sure I'm getting every last drop of bass there is.

I know exactly what you are talking about, but I happen to like the way the system sounds as is. I tried higher crosses just like you are saying, and I do not have a liking for that sound. I want my 7 channels to go full throttle and do what they can and they seem to do that just fine. I tried the crossover at higher cuts and I do not like that for the LFE channel.

Bruce,

There is one thing I do know. I know that I have an active crossover for each channel and they drive a high cab and a "sub". I also have an LFE channel with dual cabinets-Potentia Maximus-1 Mic 2200 to 2 Itech 8000's bridged to an LMS cabinet each. Potential input of 16000 watts to the LMS cabs alone.

The LFE is not a sub. It is an effects channel with a discreet signal to 120 Hz. I know that. But, I happen to personally not like the sound that crossing so high gives. I may learn to like it after some more experimentaion, but if I had my preference now, it is the lower cross.

I am going to have a GTG soon, and anyone who wants to come is more than welcome. At that time, I will be more than willing to allow any adjustments that will help get the most out of my mains and LFE.

I am more than willing to make changes, but I am not only going to go by how something measures, but by the overall feel that it gives me. I hope someone with expertise in this area shows up and gives it a whack.

Thanks,

Robert

**robertcharles123** · **07-06-09, 12:48 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

I'm just trying to figure things out to see if I can help. It sounds like you may be losing out a fair amount of bass.

Those pro JBL subs can't do much below 30hz, so any low bass from the main speaker channels is either absent or severely rolled off. Don't underestimate how much <30hz bass in recorded in the mains, center, and even sometimes the surrounds. On top of that, by allowing those pro subs to act in tandum with the speaker channels, you have to be getting a lot of cancellation and uneven response at your seat. It's much easier to place one or two subs in an ideal location and optimize things rather than have a subwoofer at each predetermined speaker location and hope for the best.

At the same time, you now have this monstrous pair of subwoofers getting barely any signal - if they could talk, they would be begging for more input. I know it's good to have headroom, but seriously, if the subs are only seeing LFE <50hz, they really aren't seeing a whole lot at all.

I would urge you to consider taking a look at redirecting all bass below 50hz from each speaker channel to these LMS subwoofers in addition to the LFE channel - and the LFE channel really should be the entire 3-120hz signal. If you only send LFE below 50hz to the dedicated LFE subs, then the LFE from 50-120hz is completely lost and not being reproduced in your system at all. That's a fair amount of information - it will give much more detail to the bass instead of just room shaking and rumbling.

I don't know what processor you are using, but it should have the flexibility to allow you to set each speaker channel to small and use a 50hz crossove to the LMS subwoofers. Then make sure that LFE is set to these subs as well.

Anyone else want to back me up here? It just seems like he's losing out on a fair amount of bass reproduction. With a near $20k pair of subs, I'd want to make sure I'm getting every last drop of bass there is.

Just read the post again. If I happened to cross the mains at 50 and up, I would be totally removing the/all of my 18's out of the equation. I happen to have the high cabs crossed at 50 and up and the JBL's 50 and down- high pass now in place at 20 with a 6 db per octave slope. If I crossed that high the JBL's would be effectively removed from the equation. How is that supposed to help the situation? I know for sure, I definitely like the high cabs 50 and up and the JBL's 50 and below. I have used these JBL's for almost 10 years now, and I definitely will not cross them higher. I have used them with every crossover point on the driverack and with all the slopes and like they are without the LFE channel connected. That is how I like the sound. I guess I need to look at my setup more seriously.

So, what you are effectively saying, I either need to eliminate the JBL's and go with the high cabs-only one on each channel, and cross them at 50 or so and up. Or choice 2, cross the JBL cabs at 50 and up to ??? and cross the highs at ??? and up to 20k. Is this the scenerio?

Thanks,

Robert

**SteveCallas** · **07-06-09, 08:46 AM**

The JBLs can't be doing much below 30hz, so their range of use is extremely limited, ~30-50hz.

How low of a crossover to a subwoofer does your processor allow? If it allows a 30hz crossover, you can still split the signal to each speaker between a JBL sub and the tower speaker at 50hz and then have the LMS subs cover <30hz. So it would be tower speaker 50-20khz, JBL sub 30-50hz, LMS <30hz. In reality, the JBL subs essentially become irrelevant....

That brings up a question though - and I apologize for asking, but the thread is big - what frequency did you tune these LMS subs to?

Also, what don't you like about the sound if you cross to the JBL subs higher, like 80hz? There's no way the tower speakers can be more capable than the dual pro 18s at 80hz. There's no way the pro 18s could be more capable than the 4 LMS drivers either, but that's a different story

**robertcharles123** · **07-06-09, 11:12 AM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

The JBLs can't be doing much below 30hz, so their range of use is extremely limited, ~30-50hz.

How low of a crossover to a subwoofer does your processor allow? If it allows a 30hz crossover, you can still split the signal to each speaker between a JBL sub and the tower speaker at 50hz and then have the LMS subs cover <30hz. So it would be tower speaker 50-20khz, JBL sub 30-50hz, LMS <30hz. In reality, the JBL subs essentially become irrelevant....

That brings up a question though - and I apologize for asking, but the thread is big - what frequency did you tune these LMS subs to?

Also, what don't you like about the sound if you cross to the JBL subs higher, like 80hz? There's no way the tower speakers can be more capable than the dual pro 18s at 80hz. There's no way the pro 18s could be more capable than the 4 LMS drivers either, but that's a different story

The LMS is tuned to 14.4 HZ

**darrellh44** · **07-08-09, 03:18 PM**

Robert,

I sent you a PM.

-Darrell

**robertcharles123** · **07-08-09, 09:54 PM**

Quote:

darrellh44 wrote:

Robert,

I sent you a PM.

-Darrell

We are home

**robertcharles123** · **07-10-09, 08:08 PM**

Quote:

darrellh44 wrote:

Robert,

I sent you a PM.

-Darrell

So Darrell,

What did you think?

**Seaxe** · **07-12-09, 12:53 PM**

robertcharles,many thanks for the detailed posts. I have followed your build with great interest and no little envy,or,indeed,lust!.Looking foward to your^e subjective in house assessment.Many thanks,Mike

**robertcharles123** · **07-12-09, 01:14 PM**

Quote:

Seaxe wrote:

robertcharles,many thanks for the detailed posts. I have followed your build with great interest and no little envy,or,indeed,lust!.Looking foward to your^e subjective in house assessment.Many thanks,Mike

I currently have the LFE "hooked" up, but not completely. I have both cabs being driven with 1 crown itech 8000 in stereo. I have to get the wiring done and the rack finished. I am enjoying the system, but to really see what can be done, I need to give it some time. I can say that I liked the way the LFE integrated in my system before I had to replace processors. I now have an Integra 9.9. I am learning how to use it, so we will see.

Thanks,

Robert

Advertisement