car amp and sub

[busen19]

I want to build my own home theater sub (obviously) I read a couple threads where a guy used a JL audio car sub so that answers my first questions. My second question is can I also use a car amp? I plan on using a 12 inch Orion HCCA sub, and a XTR amp. Can I do this? This will all be ran off of an Emotiva UMC-1 processor.


http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Product...?ProductID=502

http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Product...?ProductID=513

[Mike P.]

We'll need the parameters to see how it models. Can you provide a link to the manual or the specs?

[busen19]

details on the sub, amp or processor? I can provide info for all, but wasn't sure based on your reply?

Thanks - Trav

[Mike P.]

The parameters for the sub.

[busen19]

Is this the type of data you need?


Sensitivity: 84 dB
RMS Power Range : 2000 Watts
Peak Power Handling: 4000 Watts
Impedance: Dual 4 Ohm
Diameter: 12 "

4” copper Wound Voice Coil on an Aluminum Former, High temperature PAARC (Polyester Amide, Amide Resin Coated)
Continuous power handling will be 1500W (under rated)
Burp power in excess of 5000W
X-Max estimated at 30mm (total travel 4” peak to peak)
Field Replaceable Cone / Voice coil / Spider Assembly
Dual Flat Conex Spiders with Loop/Stitched Tinsel Leads
Tall, wide, balanced, Foam (high density expanded polyester foam) surround for linear controlled long excursion using a Tri-Radius symmetrical edge design optimized on non-linear FEA
Enhanced voice coil cooling system (forced convection – aluminum heat sinking – shorting rings to reduce inductive heating)

[Mike P.]

I'm looking for the T/S parameters like Fs, Vas, Qts, Qms, Qes, Xmax Re, Bl, etc. Those are what's needed to model the sub to find out what the sub is capable of.

[busen19]

FS: 23.98
Vas (equivalent compliance, cu. ft. : 1.847
Vas (equivalent compliance, liters) : 52.33
Qms (Q, mechanical) : 2.99
Qes (Q, electrical) : 0.42
Qts (total driver Q) : 0.37
Re (DC resistance, ohms) : 7.76
Xmax (one way linear excursion, in.) : 1.2
Xmax (one way linear excursion, mm): 30
Mms (total moving mass, grams): 372.77
Cms (mechanical compliance, mm/N) : 0.118
Bl (motor strength, Tesla-M) : 32.07
Sd (effective radiating area, sq. cm.) : 559.9
Frequency range (Hz) : 24-250
Energy Bandwidth Product (EBP): 57
Sd (effective radiating area, sq. in.): 86.78467

If you need more info please let me know there is an entire pdf with the tech details found here

http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Support...ubs%202007.pdf

[Mike P.]

5 cu.ft net volume tuned to 18 hz with a slot port 3" x 10" x 45" long looks good. Wired for a 2 ohm load it will handle 500 watts with a high pass filter at 14 hz. I'm not sure what kind of power supply it would take to get that car amp to work though.

[busen19]

holy I can't believe you just did all that. So if I choose this subwoofer, the dimensions you just gave me is what I would need. I would need to build an enclosure that is 5 cubic feet with a 3 x 10 x 45 inch slot as my port? And that would get me down to 18 hz? What did you do to come up with that and how do I get some :-)

[Mike P.]

5 cu. ft. is the net internal volume. Add the displacement of the port, sub and bracing and the total internal volume required is 6.3 cu.ft. which is 10,900 cu. inches. With room gain you can expect 116 -118 db down to 16 hz. There's a "Enclosure Calculators" at the top of this page.

The modeling program is WinISD. There's a tutorial on it here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...inisd-pro.html

Do you already have this Orion sub and what does it cost? Just curious.

[busen19]

thank you so much, I really don't understand most of the stuff you said about room gain and stuff but I will look that up.

No I don't have this sub yet. You can get them for around $350 off the internet. when I was a kid I had a pair of 12" orion XTRs that would just blow your mind with the amount of bass that make. If you check out their web page at www.orioncaraudio.com, you will see all of their products. Their XTR PRO line is awesome too - they make JL blush :-) HCCA is their top of the line sub.

So does this look like a good subwoofer for this app, or would I be better off buying some from say Dayton audio or parts express? I know they rock for car audio, but wasn't sure if it would be good for home theatre. You analysis seems to say it would fair ok

[busen19]

bummer, it doesn't look like it is doesn't run on Macs..... oh well

One more question. When you say high pass filter are you referring to the crossover setting for the sub on my processor?

[busen19]

sorry to keep bugging you but doesn't5 cubic feet sound really small?

[Mike P.]

A high pass filter is a rumble filter. It blocks the low frequencies from reaching the sub so the sub doesn't bottom out from over excursion.

Room gain is the effect the room has on the output. Most rooms reinforce the low end output and you can get 6 - 8 db more SPL from 20 hz on down. For car audio it's called cabin gain.

Do you have a box size restriction for your HT sub? A budget for sub and amp? Knowing that plus the size of your HT room will make it easier to recommend a solution. There are plenty of HT sub drivers out there in the $350 range.

5 cu.ft. is what is required for that specific sub. A different sub would require a different box size. Click on the link in my signature and see what DIY HT subs are all about.

[busen19]

thanks again for the quick response, learning a lot this morning

I found some information on the butterworth filter so I understand what that is for now. I have no size restrictions on my box, WAF is not a factor, and I am handy with wood so the DIY route is appealing to me. For an amp, I was thinking about just making this a passive sub and bridging channels 6 & 7 on my Emo LPA-1 to run the sub.

I am basing all of this on the performance of an AV123 MFW-15 - which would cost approximately 600 bucks (including shipping) for me So performance comparable to that plus being less that 600 bucks is my goal. I don't care how it looks, only about sound. I will check out your link - you've been a HUGE help.

[Mike P.]

For $600 you can build a sub that would definitely outperform a MFW-15. And that would include a real sub amp.

[busen19]

do you have a personal preference for any design over another given my $$ restrictions. I see the multiple drivers and the frequencies that they are tuned to, but do you have a preference. They are all gorgeous, the subs that these people are making is definetly not what I imagined when I thought DIY sub - but it gets the wheels turning...

[Mike P.]

do you have a personal preference for any design over another given my $$ restrictions.

The budget and your goals dictate which sub would be best. How big is your HT room and is it closed or open to other areas? Is your budget for the sub and amp, or all inclusive as in wood, ports, cabinet finishing, etc.

the subs that these people are making is definitely not what I imagined when I thought DIY sub

I hope you weren't planning on a 12 inch cube!

[busen19]

The 600 bucks was for everything less the wood. I've been looking at amps, and this one looks nice.


http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...2&ctab=13#Tabs


As much as it kills me being an avid Mac user, it looks as if though I am forced to load windows on to my mac, I just HAVE to get my hands on WinISD - it just looks too cool

I hope you weren't planning on a 12 inch cube!

Not anymore

All my original plans are scrapped now..... my wife just rolls her eyes and says " Oh would you just buy the one from the internet (MFW-15)..... but that's no fun now is it.

[Mike P.]

That amp has a default high pass filter at 30 hz. It would need to be changed by soldering in 2 different resistors. The instructions are on the website. Is that doable for you?

How big is your HT room and is it closed or open to other areas?

[busen19]

Yes that is doable for me, though I would prefer to buy an amp that already has one. My room is very large and open. I would have to fill roughly 1200 sq. feet though it is very oddly shaped. My main room is 13*26 which is where all my gear is, but is has a 11*15 L off of it, the back of my main room opens up to a long hallway with other rooms. I have a scale drawing in pdf if you care to see.

I have X-Statiks as my mains with 4 sealed 6.5" drivers, and really cranked up you can't even hardly feel the bass because I have so much area. My room is also acoustically treated with two superchunk bass traps - one is floor to ceiling, I made out of Rockwool 60, plus 4 , 4 inch panels in my main room, and acoustic tile ceiling throughout.

[busen19]

where did you see that it had a high pass filter at 30 hz. I looked on the website, and both of the spec PDFs for it and no where did I see that...

[Mike P.]

That's a big space to fill. I'd suggest a 18 inch sub like the IXL-18 from mach 5 Audio. They should be in stock again next week, they were selling for $265 shipped. Here are a couple of models of the sub.

Pink is with the 500 watt Bash amp with the HPF set at 13.9 hz, that's as low as it can be set.

Green is with a Behringer EP2500 which can be had for $270. The advantage of the EP2500 is it has enough power to driver 2 subs, a nice option to have should you decide to build a second sub in the future. The amp will do over 2000 watts into 4 ohms.

[Mike P.]

busen19 wrote:

where did you see that it had a high pass filter at 30 hz. I looked on the website, and both of the spec PDFs for it and no where did I see that...

From the Spec Sheet and Boost tables PDF:

Locate R17 and R18 on the pre-amp board, the default values are R17=10K and R18=60K.

That would be the corresponding HPF at the bottom of the 2dB of Bass Boost table.

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/300-752.pdf