Kids Game Room Subwoofer

[swithey]

I’m building a “mini-me” media room for my kids in our game room. We already have the dedicated "Home Theater” room with (4) SS RL-p15s in an IB configuration – and I love it. This is a back-up room so “Dad” can watch in the big room and the kids can watch in their room at the same time. Everyone is happy

The wife wants all the speakers and subwoofer hidden from view. I have attic space above and in front of the room to use for a small IB or in-wall boxed sub setup. I’m kind of on a budget with this room considering it is “just the kids” – so I don’t want to go overboard on the expense.

The room is 19’w x 13’d x 8’-10’t (vaulted ceiling) -- ~2,225cuft

My wife has set the budget around $350 (with the amp) -- so I can't do dual 18"s in this room unfortunately

I was considering dual Dayton RSS265HO-4 10" Reference HO with a Bash 500watt plate amp. The other option is a single 15" Dayton TIT400C-4 15" Titanic Mk III in either an IB config or sealed/ported box.

I'm not an expert at picking drivers -- so any help would be appreciated. I’m open to almost anything. I'm just looking for the best bang for my buck.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Steve

[ironglen]

Those are good options: you can look at the css 10" with 300w amp at it has been built by members, or maybe a couple elemental design 12"s or perhaps mach5 drivers may fit your price range? Does your build cost include enclosure costs too? If ported, you'll want an amp with a hpf built in too. Will you need to 'safeguard' the driver from the kids with a grill, etc?

[swithey]

ironglen wrote:

Those are good options: you can look at the css 10" with 300w amp at it has been built by members, or maybe a couple elemental design 12"s or perhaps mach5 drivers may fit your price range? Does your build cost include enclosure costs too? If ported, you'll want an amp with a hpf built in too. Will you need to 'safeguard' the driver from the kids with a grill, etc?

Thanks for the prompt reply Glen!

I did not know about the CSS SDX10 or the ED12 or the Mach5. I did some research and they all look good.

Enclosure cost will be outside of the $350. Gotcha on the HPF on the amp. And the driver will be at ceiling level so no hands or feet near this one

Did some cost analyst on the subs you mentioned (shipping cost not included):

- Dual Dayton RSS265HO-4 10" Reference HO
- 300 Watt Bash Amp
- $266


- Single Dayton TIT400C-4 15" Titanic Mk III (sealed/ported)
- 300 Watt Bash Amp
- $283


- Dual Dayton TIT280C-4 10" Titanic Mk III
- 300 Watt Bash Amp
- $322


- Single Mach5 IXL-15.2.2
- 300 Watt Bash Amp
- $326


- Dual ED e3.12
- 300 Watt Bash Amp
- $356


- Dual CSS SDX10s
- 300 Watt Bash Amp
- $406


The last couple are a little over my budget. Any suggestions? IB with dual or a single 15" sealed or ported? I like option #1 since the price is good, but willing to give a little if needed.

Steve

[evilskillit]

Just from what I've read about IB I'm not sure if any of these drivers will be suitable for IB duty, especially as big as that room is going to be. If you do want to go IB you might look at some of the IB specific drivers. 2 Exodus Audio DPL-15 with a bash 300 is a bit over your budget but that might be by far the best solution if you do want to go IB.

If that is not possible what are you going to do? Put the box in the attic with the sub and port firing out into the room? If that is the case I did some modeling for a coworker who wanted a sub and was willing to spend about $300, after trying several different options I decided that I liked the new CSS Trio-12 in a 4-ish cu ft box tuned to around 20hz.

The Shiva-X2 and Tempest-X2 are both within or very close to your price range as well and may be worth considering for box duty.

Shiva-X2 12" Sub
Bash 300 - Right at $350

Tempest-X2 15" Sub
Bash 300 - $370

DPL-15 15" IB Sub x2
Bash 300 - $430

[ironglen]

I'm liking that PE combo, esp. for the price which includes shipping...otherwise, the tempest over the shiva, if you have the room and don't mind the price difference. Maybe model the final contenders before deciding?

[evilskillit]

Yeah if 350 is your budget I'd probably go for the Exodus Audio Tempest 15" or the Mach5 Audio MJ18-M. You might go a bit over budget on either of these but they'll probably blow away most of the other options, and if the box is going into the attic anyways then the fact that its big won't really matter either.

[swithey]

Thanks again guys.

Yes, I can put whatever I build in the attic out of site. Looks like a sealed or ported sub will be best give my limited budget.

So, I guess the contenders are as follows -- all in a ported box (Shipping extra):

All will use this 300watt digital Bash Amp. (I can get this amp for $106)

Single Tempest-X2 15"
Bash 300Watt Amp
$325

Single Mach5 Audio MJ18-M 18"
Bash 300Watt Amp
$282

Dual Dayton RSS265HO-4 10" Reference HO
300 Watt Bash Amp
$266

Single CSS TRIO12 12"
300 Watt Bash Amp
$245

Modeling may be the easiest way to see which config could do the best. I am curious how the PE combo will compare using dual 10" woofs (if that was the PE combo you were talking about Glen). I know the Tempest may be the best of the bunch but would like to spend less if I can get 85-90% of the performance with either of the others.

That Mach5 must be a monster given it is 18". I think my wife will fall down that I'm putting that much power in the kids room given I only have 15s in the main home theater

[evilskillit]

The MJ18 is a monster but its x-max is somewhat less than your 15s so its total swept volume might not be that much greater.

As for which one would best suit you yes modeling them would be the best way to go. Do you have, and know how to use WinISD or Unibox? Both are free solutions and fairly easy to use with just a bit of learning. Any one of us could model them for you easily, however that is a lot of screen shots to post and you'd still be better off if you did it yourself because then you could play with the models and find your happy spot. Anyways, let us know.

Actually the biggest thing holding back a lot of these setups will be the 300 watt amp as most of the subs can use a lot more than 300 watts. Unless you put them in a really big honking enclosure, which you will have the chance to do since it'll be out of sight and mind and all that.

[swithey]

Let me take a stab at modeling. I played around with WinISD it a few years back so hopefully it will come back to me. Thanks for offering to help and I'll let you know if I get stuck.

[evilskillit]

Well I'm bored here they are all modeled in enclosures whose size I chose arbitrarily. They are all modeled with 300 watts input power and none of them are anywhere near exceeding their xmax.

See Pic

Btw I think the WinISD files for all these drivers might be hosted on this site if you don't want to deal with putting in the TS parameters which is the most tedious and probably most difficult part of using WinISD. If not I could mail them or something.

WinISD WDR Files Located Here

[ironglen]

Sorry, I was referring to the PE bash amp/Dayton Titanic combo as it would be free shipping for both. Looking at the models(they all look good), and considering your space limitations (none), it really comes down to price and output. I don't have experience with these, nor spl recommendations, but some guys here have used these and can help you, hopefully they'll post some feedback-good luck!

[swithey]

Matt -- thanks for doing that for me. I was in the middle of starting on my end.

That Tempest does look the most smooth and nearly the highest output of all the drivers. However, the CSS TRIO12 12" looks like a pretty good contender for the price/performance ratio. We may have a winner here. I can get everything shipped for $274.

I actually prefer not to deal with an 18" driver if I can get enough from a smaller version. I don't see the kids cranking it (unless I'm in the room LOL)

Now the next question -- most likely it will go between 24" OC joists. I was thinking of building it 22.5 x 22.5 x 22.5 (external dimensions). It will most likely be built out of 2 layers of 3/4" MDF (or a layer of 3/4 MDF and 3/4 OSB or Ply). Can you help me with port length and diameter? Any reason I need to go with round vs. rectangular?

[swithey]

ironglen wrote:

Sorry, I was referring to the PE bash amp/Dayton Titanic combo as it would be free shipping for both. Looking at the models(they all look good), and considering your space limitations (none), it really comes down to price and output. I don't have experience with these, nor spl recommendations, but some guys here have used these and can help you, hopefully they'll post some feedback-good luck!

Gotcha. I've actually built a few IB subs with the Titanic 15s for friends on a budget and they are not nearly as impressive as the SS 15s I have in my room now. Now, putting them in a ported box may changes things a lot.

[ironglen]

I know something about ports

The slot port is cheaper.
A round (especially prefab) one is easier.
Seriously, you shouldn't have a sound difference if it's flared either way.

Either way, you'll want to flare the ends; hopefully you have access to a router. Otherwise, a prefab one is easy to use when no aesthetics involved, just cut the hole with a jigsaw.

[evilskillit]

That would equal approx 5.3 cu ft before you account for bracing, the driver and the port, which is a pretty good size. I have no idea how much space that stuff takes up. If you guess at 0.5 cu ft then you end up with 4.8 cu ft.

If you're comfortable doing a slot port I feel they're better because you get more flexability in determing the size, you don't have to source plastic tube, and cut a hole for it and pay extra for it and stuff.

In a 4.8 cu ft box with a port with a cross sectional area of roughly 18 square inches. Eg: 3"x6" you'll need the port to be 25" long. That gives you fairly flat response with an F3 of 108db at 21hz. I'll post some pictures of the modeling. One thing to keep in mind is that these models account for the slight bass boost and then cutoff of the Bash 300, so if you use a different amp or fiddle with the bass boost/cutoff function of the Bash300 it will change these graphs slightly.

Here is an image shack link to an album containing 3 pics of the modeling of the CSS Trio12 for you. Check em out.

http://img27.imageshack.us/g/trio121.png/

One of the problems with this build would be a single 4" port is a bit small and finding anything bigger than 4" with a flare is very hard to come by and probably fairly expensive.
You could use 2 flared 4" ports but they would need to be fairly long which would probably require buying extra middle pieces and splicing them together, which gets even quite a bit more costly.

[swithey]

Building a slotted port will be easy for me (and this is my preference as well). I even have a beefy 3/4" round-over bit to finish it out correctly I'm a pretty handy guy, so the box build should be a piece of cake compared to my HT build.

I need to pop my head up in the attic space and check out the specs for fitting it in between (2) ceiling joists. Once I get that down, I'll post back if anything changes. The modeling you did looks great --- thanks again.

And a build question. Since I'm putting this thing up in the attic, I was planning to mount the box then insert the driver from the room side. I guess I'll need a helper when I installed it to hold the driver in place while I attach it with screws. Am I missing anything or is this the best way to do it? I used the cheap-o pipe clips for my IB which made it pretty simple. This technique does not work too well for this type of design.

[Mike P.]

Best bang for the buck with 300 watts is going to be the MJ-18M if box size isn't an issue. It edges out the Tempest-X by a bit. The Titanic 15 models the same as the Tempest-X at this power level.

[swithey]

Mike, you're twisting my arm here My total walkout for the MJ-18M and amp would only be $289 (+$15 more than the CSS Trio12). Hmm, I might just have to deal with the size and go for it.

[ironglen]

swithey wrote:

Mike, you're twisting my arm here My total walkout for the MJ-18M and amp would only be $289 (+$15 more than the CSS Trio12). Hmm, I might just have to deal with the size and go for it.

Mike's good like that Looks like you have the titanic or trio for a little less money, or the MJ18. Your 'kids' are going to love this if they use it for games and such- you sure that you can trust them with this stuff??? lol

[swithey]

Hey Mike/Glen, just for fun, can you model the CSS Trio12 in a 13cu/ft box (tuned in the 17/18hz range) so we can see how it compares to the MJ-18M? I was just thinking about the grill size in the room jumping from ~14" x 14" to ~20" x 20" and was worried the wife may pull the WAF card out of her pocket.

[Mike P.]

6 cu. ft. would be as big as a TRIO 12 would need. If box size isn't an issue, the 18" would be the way to go with 300 watts. If box size is an issue, a different sub can be used at the expense of SPL.

[ironglen]

That's a substantial increase in output with the same amp. Steve, you might benefit by looking at this post (see post #4) before approaching your wife on the 18" driver...

[swithey]

Mike P. wrote:

If box size is an issue, a different sub can be used at the expense of SPL.

Box size is not a big deal at all (since it is hidden). I was talking about the opening needed for the 18" driver itself in the room. The plan was to build a DIY 20" x 20" fabric covered grill (to match better with the ceiling color) to cover up the black beast.

Glen -- looked at the post. Yes, I could do that but I'd like to save up those points for something more important (like a new toy for the main home theater ). Let me see what she has to say and we'll go from there.

[swithey]

Okay Guys -- got the approval from the wife to do the MJ-18M

I need to fit it in between 24" OC studs. This puts be at 22.5" wide x ~2.75' tall and ~2.75' deep. I plan to take exact measurements when I start construction on the sub.

I'm going to shoot for the optimal 13cuft and would like it tuned around 18Hz. Could you guys help me with port width, height and length? I plan to go the slotted design.

And one more question -- What about a IB design (open back) with the single driver? Is 300watts enough power? Would this shake my ceiling joists too much (since there is no 2nd woofer to cancel things out)? I was thinking this would make the build go a lot faster. Just asking -- but not requiring if it won't work.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[Mike P.]

An IB with a single 18" won't have as much output as a ported 18.