need 4 hi quality subs for 2 channel

**probillygun** · **10-30-09, 05:28 PM**

I'm designing a large bi ampable tower speaker.
I want the bottom portion of each tower to house (2) 12" subs powered with a Crown K2 at 2 ohms per side. (1200rms x 2) so I need the 12's to be 4 ohms each and parallel them to give the K2 a 2 ohm load.

What 12" long excursion driver would you guys recommend for the best 2 channel SQ possible and be able to handle at least 600 watts RMS each???

I'm considering porting them in the mid to low 20s. I can make the enclosure whatever size would be best sound quality

Thoughts?

Thanks!

**Mike P.** · **10-30-09, 05:49 PM**

Either SVC 4 0hm or DVC 2 ohm would work. If you port any dual 12 in the mid to low 20s that's gonna be one big box!

**evilskillit** · **10-30-09, 06:08 PM**

Yeah those speakers are going to be huge with most 12" subs. You might look at a Peerless XXXLS as they use small boxes, also the Dayton Audio RSS315HO works quite well in a very small box.

**probillygun** · **10-30-09, 11:07 PM**

not concerned about box size unless its over 10 cubes which i dont think it will be.

I'm thinking of using the shiva 12"s. any other ideas?

**evilskillit** · **10-31-09, 04:30 AM**

Got a mock up of what your talking about, even a drawing on some scratch paper that you can take a pic of and post, or a picture of a similar design? Because I'm having a hard time imagining what you've got in mind.

**SteveCallas** · **10-31-09, 04:06 PM**

How high in frequency will these woofers need to play? If greater than 80hz, I would take a look at the Dayton Reference 12" High Fidelity subwoofer driver. If you don't need the super depths, I would take a look at the considerably less expensive but just as clean Dayton RS270 10".

**probillygun** · **11-01-09, 04:12 AM**

It will be a 4 way tower speaker, from top to bottom; W,M,T,M,W,SW,SW

and the 2 12" subwoofers at the bottom would be powered by the Crown K2. So they beed to handle at least 600 watts RMS and be very low in distortion & provide low accurate audiophile bass reletively flat down to 20HZ.

**probillygun** · **11-01-09, 04:41 AM**

will be crossing over the 12"s electronicaly around 80 HZ. I dont belive the Daytons have the power handleing and excursion I need with that K2 hitting them hard and each sub running in 4-5 cubes per driver...

**evilskillit** · **11-01-09, 10:57 AM**

I would look for 12" subs that can play loud and handle a lot of power but can play well in smaller enclosures just to keep these things from being rediculously large and heavy. It sounds you you can make them as big as is needed, and are willing to. However unless your budget simply prevents you from buying some of the slightly more expensive subs that will fit into a smaller cabinet I would recommend doing so just so that these things don't become so large that they practically become part of the house.

Anyways check out these subs
Audiopulse AX12Q1
I believe most of the Fi Audio 12s would work for you except for the IB.

**dyohn** · **11-01-09, 11:46 AM**

have you looked at the new Shivas? http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=693

**Jason_Nolan** · **11-01-09, 12:01 PM**

If money is no object, why not use 12 or 13" JL W7 car audio woofers. They could take all the power that amp has to offer and more.

Just a thought.

**evilskillit** · **11-01-09, 12:48 PM**

Well we don't know if money is no object, I was just throwing some stuff out there.

Yeah the new Shiva is great and is kind of the benchmark for 12" woofers. I would definitely check them out, however IF he did have more to spend he could get similar performance in a smaller box, it just costs more money.

I honestly don't know anything about the new JL W7 drivers tho from what I've seen people say you can usually get something that works about as well without spending quite so much but I haven't looked at the specs and compared them yet myself.

Edit* I just went to the JL web page and looked at the manual for the 12W7. A couple of things that stick out to me. 1. for well over $400 you would think they could give you more TS parameters than just QTS, QMS, Q, Vas and Xmax. I know those are all you need to make a generic model of the sub but come on. You drop that kind of money and they could disclose a bit more info so you don't have to measure it yourself. 2. The mounting system looks like a big pain in the rear, whats up with the clip ring and having the screws hidden under the surround anyways? 3. It looks really nice but I dont think that there aren't other offerings that will compete for less money.

**probillygun** · **11-02-09, 10:54 AM**

just like to say thank you for the help so far, seems like we are getting somewhere now!

ok, I'd like to stay under $250 per sub (being I'd be getting 4 of em'), and I wanna get the best SQ I can get. I can do at least 5 cubic feet net volume for each 12" and I dont really care how much space it takes up as I have a dedicated theater room and will also use this room for 2 channel audiophile listening as well, So good chance I may end up with a couple sets of speakers in the front.

I would like the bass to be very high quality maybe large low tuned for this? Thoughts??

I really like the 12" Shiva's, but was wondering what box sizes work best for them being setup for tight, low accurate 2 channel bass??? Looks like they have tons of xmaxx and power handling

Or if there might be a better choice out there???

**probillygun** · **11-02-09, 10:56 AM**

Yes, I think the JL w7 line is sweet, but I cant justify that kinda price for what I'm doing. But I've used their subs in various car audio installs over the years and always been very pleased with the results and support from them

**dyohn** · **11-02-09, 11:20 AM**

I can vouch for the Shiva's being outstanding woofers, both in output capacity and SQ. I have two of them in my HT now. I suggest putting each one in a 4.3 cuft vented enclosure tuned to 19Hz.

**probillygun** · **11-02-09, 12:23 PM**

that sounds reasonable for voulme size, Do you have the specs for the ports for that? slot? round?

Did you use any polyfill or line the box walls with anything?

any pics of your subs?

Thanks,
Bill

**probillygun** · **11-02-09, 12:24 PM**

how much power are you using on them in the 4.3 cubic foot box?

**sub_crazy** · **11-02-09, 01:56 PM**

Quote:

evilskillit wrote:

Anyways check out these subs
Audiopulse AX12Q1

Hey Evil,

What would you use the AP Axis in if you don't mind me asking? I have a pair of the Axis 12" Q1 and haven't decided on an application yet but did try them out in both a sealed 1.4 cu ft box and a 2.8 cf PR box, both which I had already in the garage and they are sweet drivers.

I was thinking sealed ottoman type with the drivers down-firing but man do these suckers take a lot of juice sealed. A ported enclosure would help with the power requirements but I want to have the best music performance from these as I have other drivers to add in for movies. Power wise I already have a pair of QSC PXL2502's which is about the perfect match in a sealed alignment.

With the sale on these at parts express I am tempted to buy another pair but the power requirements may hold me back.
edit: (I just checked what I paid for the pair the last time part express had a sale and it was about $100 less each about a year ago, not such a good sale now after all)

Thanks in advance.

Mike

**evilskillit** · **11-02-09, 02:15 PM**

I'm at work right now but I'll look at them when I get home. What size room are you working with and are you wanting to use them just for music, or for movies as well? Those will ofcourse all be considerations.

**sub_crazy** · **11-02-09, 02:29 PM**

I wanted to use the Axis pair for music mainly but when I turn to movies they will be in use as well with another pair of subs thrown in the mix. They will be a combo of music/movie subs.

I already have a SMS-1 and can also use a BFD-1124 to eq then separately with the SMS-1 in the mix when I listen to movies.

**evilskillit** · **11-02-09, 07:43 PM**

To sub_crazy modeling the Axis 12s in WinISD it seems like to have a big enough port to tune them really low and not have port noise you would have serious port resonance issues. If you went with a 2 cu ft box you would need a 6" vent to keep from having port noise over 1500watts, then the port needs to be over 80 inches long to hit a 20hz tune. That puts the first port resonance at 83hz, not to mention there is no way the port would fit in the box, you'd have to run it around the outside, heh.

Given your primary concern is music I would put them in sealed boxes approx 1.5 cu ft. That gives you a fairly gentle slope which in anything other than a very big room would have substantial room gain in the low end. A pair of these in this configuration driven with 1000-2000 watts each would probably rock the house. There is enough excursion that you could EQ the bottom end up a bit if you really wanted to as long as you didn't drive them with max power.

**sub_crazy** · **11-02-09, 08:48 PM**

Thanks Evil,

Your picture is sweet!

I know they work well in a 2.8 cu ft enclosure with a 18" PR tuned to about 18hz but the box is odd since you have to accommodate the 12" then 18". I did try them out in a 1.4 cf sealed I had in the garage and those little suckers crank with some eq.

I know porting is a bear with these to get a low tune without it whistling.

Thanks for checking this out for me but we are thinking the same thing, at least I got confirmation.

I have a bunch of other drivers to add to the mix for movies. I have a plan for a TC-3000 15" with a pair of TC VMPS 15" in a 6 cf enclosure to nail the low end down for movies. Either that or a pair of Mal-x but the TC PR design will probably be easier to drive and look killer.

Thanks again.

**evilskillit** · **11-02-09, 08:55 PM**

Its funny that you say that because I almost mentioned that the Axis 12s seem more like they're designed for high SPL in a car and that you might benefit from tuning them either ported or sealed in a stereo configuration to play bass from 50-120hz and then use something else from 50-0 like a LLT, IB setup or Bandpass box.

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