DIY Hsu and SVS

**azgreenb** · **12-12-07, 04:06 AM**

Just wondering how much $$$ could be saved by building a sub, with similar specs to the Hsu and SVS to of the line subs. Like most people I want a lot but can only afford so much. I would love an Ultra 13, but the $1400-$1500 is a bit much. I know that they are both internet based, so the price is really good to begin with, but could the average DIY'er build a box of similar dimensions and get the same type of performance?

**Bob_99** · **12-12-07, 07:10 AM**

I'm not a DIY person myself but have looked into it quite a bit. SVS and Hsu still have to pay for workspace, salaries, probably health care and a few other things which is certainly added to the cost of the product they sell. You can invest your time and the amount of money you desire and probably come up with something better (assuming you invest for decent components). On the flip side though, they have knowledgeable people who design and test system to give you the best for your dollar. If this is your first DIY project then you'll want to put a lot of time to make sure your design is good and hopefully you're good with power tools. I find doing anything DIY, the more times that you do it, the better you get at it. You could always consider this as the first step of several projects to eventually give yourself a really great sub.

That's my thought and I hope it helps.

Bob

**jr1414** · **12-12-07, 08:41 AM**

I think you'll be hard pressed as a hobbyist (DIY'er) to find as good a value for the dollar as some of those company's more reasonably priced models. They invest hundreds if not thousands of hours on tuning their sub/amp combos that you just cannot duplicate on your own. Then, of course, they have the economies of scale, being able to mass produce a design. I agree they have their overheads, but there are multiple advantages in their pricing for components and materials that you as the hobbyist would not have access to.

Depending on your room and your intended use you may not require the top of the line models as well. Take the time to do an honest assessment of your listening habits, room and needs, and then make an informed choice.

**mrstampe** · **12-12-07, 01:06 PM**

Quote:

jr1414 wrote:

I think you'll be hard pressed as a hobbyist (DIY'er) to find as good a value for the dollar as some of those company's more reasonably priced models.

I don't know... Take a look at the several open air and room tested DIY sonosub designs (Illka's and many others). A new DIYer doesn't have to go into their first build alone. The great thing about Home Theater Shack is that you can pick a critiqued and tested design, or modify one of those designs with the assistance of some pretty experienced people. In any event, you have the opportunity to build a sub that rivals commercial versions much more expensive than your material costs.

**jr1414** · **12-12-07, 02:18 PM**

There are certainly some projects here that are well worthwhile, even for a first time DIY'er. What I was saying is that if the performance of some of their more modest designs is ample for your requirements/needs you'd have a hard time matching value for the dollar with these companies.

Now if you require performance on par with some of their upper level models, there may be some savings to be found via the DIY route. Remember, however that these companies spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours tweaking their drivers, amps, enclosures, etc. If you plan to go the DIY route, plan on some extra $$'s for processing (BFD's etc) to get comparible results. I believe that external processing is beneficial even with the packaged products these companies offer, but becomes more necessary when mating drivers, amps, and enclosures that don't have the benefit of these countless hours of testing.

That being said, you can build for the exact paramaters you are looking for. You can tailor the enclosure, driver, amp to your own paramaters (within limits, of course). Just don't expect to spend $400 and have a killer sub capable of perfect response from 5 HZ to 300 Hz. It just doesn't happen that way.

I plan on building a sub for myself after New Year's. 1) For a particular response I'm looking for. 2) Because I enjoy building things and tweaking them. If your only goal is to save $$$'s make sure to consider not just the cost of the materials, but the time invested. Consider whether you have the time and it's worth your while. There's nothing worse (in my mind) than a project sitting uncompleted. That drives me nuts!!!

**Josuah** · **12-12-07, 03:48 PM**

My answer would be yes. I'd guess the sonotube version could be built for about half the price. The box version a little more. Don't forget to factor in the cost of tools if you don't have them; that's another few hundred.

But like jr, I don't think you'd save much of anything if you were trying to build one of their lower end models. The cost of amp, driver, and enclosure raw materials is close to the cost of those units.

**azgreenb** · **12-12-07, 06:33 PM**

I guess my thoughts are making a sub that can compete with either the SVS PB12plus/2 or the Hsu VTF-3 HO.
Its cold outside so there isn't much to do, once my boy is in bed. So I figure a winter project is inorder. Plus I have been collecting shop equipment for some time now and I haven't really used it for much of anything.
If I spent $400-$600 would that get me close to either of those subs? I like the box version better than the sonotube. I was following Warmon's "My three sons..." post and even my wife thought those looked nice. Anyway thanks for the input.

**thxgoon** · **12-12-07, 07:20 PM**

If you have the time to implement then you can definitely achive the performance of either of those subs. The design process is crucial though and companies like SVS excell at putting high performance into (relatively) small packages for a great price. Download WinISD and load up some drivers and do some experimenting. I think you'll be surprised. I built my 2 monsters for just under a grand and they outperform anything I've ever heard in real life. Just promise us a build thread!

I almost forgot to mention how much fun the build is and how rewarding it is when you finally fire them up!

**brent_s** · **12-12-07, 09:50 PM**

Cost savings really depends on how you value your time and if you have the tools/skill to build an enclosure. Spoken as a dedicated DIYer.

For a Plus2 equivalent, two Torrent Mistrals SVCs ($230) plus the ever popular Behringer 2500 ($300ish) would get you there. Figure $530 plus your ports/enclosure/bits-n-pieces/BFD. The Mistral is supposed to be the TC Sounds db500-12, which itself is supposed to be the TCS built SVS db12.2 driver...presumably with enough changes not to violate whatever NDA exists between SVS and TCS. That's probably $650ish minimum + your time when you can get the finished product from SVS for $1099.

Since you're talking a net 6-8 ft^3 box for a dual SVS driver equivalent, considering some of the uber 15" drivers might also be in order. For instance, dual db500-12s with 1000 watts in 7 ft^3/20hz only has a 3dB or less advantage over the Tempest-X ($175) from 15-25hz with the same enclosure/power.

-Brent

**azgreenb** · **12-13-07, 04:33 AM**

Brent: Thanks again you always offer up some really good detailed advice.

thxgoon: Wow those subs are monsterous! :raped: Just a tad bigger than what I am looking at!

I plan on downloading the software this weekend and seeing how the above speakers compare. At around 6-8^3ft that is exactly what I am shooting for. Something in the "it looks like an end table" sub.

And when the project starts I will keep a running account.

**hddummy** · **12-13-07, 05:42 AM**

for reference, this project came in at about 475$

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-im-again.html

and this one was about 425$

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-feedback.html

No matter what kind of sub you build, I definately advocate making a DIY. I love the time and hobby of putting one together. Even if you break even on the money, you still learned something and hopefully had a fun time doing it. If you have the time, it is totally worth it.

**jr1414** · **12-13-07, 10:00 AM**

Like most people will tell you, the savings are not as much as you might think. I picked up my PB12+/2 for $800 (about one year old) and I figure to duplicate it, with Cherry veneer finish would cost about that + my time. That being said, I'm looking at building an LLT solution with the Tempest X 15" for a more musical solution. Not that the +/2 is not musical, but I want to try some different things to see what kind of results I can find. I, like you, will need a winter project.

Keep us posted whatever you decide to do. And Happy Holidays.

**pappaj** · **12-14-07, 04:26 AM**

Even my project cost me about 400 dollars to complete, Its a little bigger then you would like, but smaller means less material and less $$$. A few of my build pics are under thread Tempest-x on order. I guarantee this sub will outperform subs worth $1000. A little bit of sweat goes a long way. Before joining this site I had never built a home sub before, but you give your requirements/expectactions and there is more than enough great minds in here to help you along the way. Besides that is why most of us diy we want more then we can afford, thats my story anyways.

**SteveCallas** · **12-15-07, 05:20 PM**

If you already have some tools laying around, you can easily match the performance of commercial subs for about half the price. You can far exceed their performance for equal price. Those who say otherwise tend not to have built any subs themselves. The larger a sub you are willing to live with, the easier and less expensive it is to achieve a given level of performance.

**azgreenb** · **12-15-07, 05:58 PM**

Quote:

brent_s wrote:

For instance, dual db500-12s with 1000 watts in 7 ft^3/20hz only has a 3dB or less advantage over the Tempest-X ($175) from 15-25hz with the same enclosure/power.

What would happen with dual Tempest-X in a similar enclosure?

**brent_s** · **12-15-07, 08:58 PM**

Quote:

azgreenb wrote:

What would happen with dual Tempest-X in a similar enclosure?

IMO, 7 ft^3 is already on the small side to get the best looking curve out of the Tempest-X. Cramming two into the same net volume/tuning with the same power actually gets you less SPL below 32hz, in addition to an earlier rolloff (higher f3/f10). Maximum SPL above 30hz shows as much as a +7dB advantage to the duals around 50hz due to the response peak induced by the undersized box.

Most of the popular 15" drivers that I've modeled tend to want enclosures approaching 6 ft^3 or more per driver when ported. The Dayton RS390-HO ($160ish?) being one of the exceptions I'm aware of...I'd be willing to use it as small as 4 ft^3, but 5 ft^3/20 looks a lot better...112-116dB from 20-100hz with 750 watts. The SDX15 ($290) could also go as small as 5/20 and would give you 116-121dB from 20-100hz with 2000 watts without exceeding Xmax over that range.

My personal sub at the moment is a single PE DVC15 in 5.9 ft^3 net tuned to 17hz. Regularly about $130, but I picked it up on a sale a couple of years ago for $105. Across the same 20-100hz window, the model says 109-117dB from only 400 watts. In my dedicated 24x16x9 theater room, it measures flat (ignoring some narrow room nulls) down to 10hz with a 100dB drive signal. I've driven it at Reference level on some of the big bang demo scenes without any audible signs of strain, but my typical listening volume is much more modest at -10 to -15 to reference.

You can use EQ to cut the peaks induced by undersized boxes, probably at the expense of other tradeoffs that are beyond my current ability to explain. In fact that's what most manufacturers are probably doing via customized circuitry built in to their plate amps. For example, the SVS PB12+ works out to roughly 4.25 ft^3 gross based on 1" walls and the assumption of 3" of height loss to the base plate and legs. The Plus2 only has 5.5 ft^3 gross using the same assumptions. To maintain the same frequency response as the single driver without additional EQ, the Plus2 would need to double the net volume. As it is, the Plus2 uses larger diameter ports in addition to dual drivers with about 30% more gross volume available.

-Brent

**brent_s** · **12-15-07, 09:08 PM**

Quote:

SteveCallas wrote:

If you already have some tools laying around, you can easily match the performance of commercial subs for about half the price. You can far exceed their performance for equal price. Those who say otherwise tend not to have built any subs themselves. The larger a sub you are willing to live with, the easier and less expensive it is to achieve a given level of performance.

Bill, the OP, did establish similar size to the SVS Plus/2 as a constraint.

I don't see anyone saying someone can't match/exceed performance based on parts cost alone. However, many, including myself, like to remind those considering DIY that one should also consider intangible costs such as time/frustration/SAF in the value equation.

**ktaillon** · **12-16-07, 01:19 PM**

You can always check the Dayton RS1200 sub kit. I don't know the spec's on the subs that you are looking at but its worth a look.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-742

A simple kit without the need to build a box.

**azgreenb** · **12-17-07, 11:04 AM**

Quote:

brent_s wrote:

SAF in the value equation.

What is SAF?

**mrstampe** · **12-17-07, 11:12 AM**

Quote:

azgreenb wrote:

What is SAF?

SAF = spouse approval factor (a.k.a. WAF = wife approval factor)... the great intangible that can make or break a project!

**azgreenb** · **12-17-07, 06:56 PM**

Ah yes! With out that none of this will be possible.

**Brian Hinther** · **01-19-08, 09:07 PM**

Sorry to be coming late to the party, but I've looked at the RS 1200 kit mentioned above. It's only a 2cf box, but still manages an F3 of 30 with a 20Hz tune, according to WinISD Pro.

An isobaric treatment should manage an F3 of 20, tuned for 20 Hz. A sealed application would render an F3 of 40Hz at a Q of .707.

Not bad for $500 (not counting an isobaric speaker), but building your own box of 4cf would get an F3 of 20 with only one speaker, and a savings of perhaps $100 over the kit enclosure.

I'm a newbie, however, so that old saying about how liars do figure may apply here.

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