Flat Panel Speaker -- Poll

[Kevin Haskins]

looneybomber wrote:

Heh, voting for "performance" from a small wall mount speaker is like voting for luggage capacity in a Miata.

Ha.... good analogy. I would say, that there are a lot of people who want a Miata and as much luggage space as they can get too. ;-)

[mjg100]

Kevin Haskins wrote:

Ha.... good analogy. I would say, that there are a lot of people who want a Miata and as much luggage space as they can get too. ;-)

Hey, I am talking about performance above 100Hz and that is easily doable. Of course it is ridicules to expect a small wall mount speaker to go low. Going low is the subwoofers role. I would like some thing that has some kick and SPL from 100Hz to 20,000Hz. There are a lot of people with small rooms that do not have the space for large floor standing speakers. This means that speakers end up close to front walls. I am not talking about cheap tiny wall mount speakers that you find sold all over the net. These should have some performance. www.paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-74-1-2-17.paradigm I am not saying that it needs as many drivers as the W5, but I would like to see some thing bigger than a 4" driver so that the speaker can move some air. Something like a pair of Kevin's new 6.5" drivers matched up with a tweeter. Also it would be nice if it had some efficiency. I am currently using these, www.rbhsound.com/wm30.shtml, crossed at 100Hz with a sub located right below each speaker. They are pretty nice for on-walls, but I would like more performance.

[Kevin Haskins]

mjg100 wrote:

Hey, I am talking about performance above 100Hz and that is easily doable. Of course it is ridicules to expect a small wall mount speaker to go low. Going low is the subwoofers role. I would like some thing that has some kick and SPL from 100Hz to 20,000Hz. There are a lot of people with small rooms that do not have the space for large floor standing speakers. This means that speakers end up close to front walls. I am not talking about cheap tiny wall mount speakers that you find sold all over the net. These should have some performance. www.paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-74-1-2-17.paradigm I am not saying that it needs as many drivers as the W5, but I would like to see some thing bigger than a 4" driver so that the speaker can move some air. Something like a pair of Kevin's new 6.5" drivers matched up with a tweeter. Also it would be nice if it had some efficiency. I am currently using these, www.rbhsound.com/wm30.shtml, crossed at 100Hz with a sub located right below each speaker. They are pretty nice for on-walls, but I would like more performance.

Many of these companies stick a bunch of drivers on a baffle and you give up bandwidth going with that high of a Sd/Enclosure volume ratio. You have to keep in mind that as you scale Sd higher, the enclosure volume has to scale in a linear manner in order to maintain the same F3. Many of these slim speaker designs give up bandwidth partially due to this and the fact they don't have much enclosure volume to begin with.

With our driver designs you can effectively get much more output per driver, keep bandwidth and maintain a smaller enclosure compared to the multiple driver + slim enclosure design. If I did a slim wall-mount design I'd use midrange-tweeter in the slim profile cabinet, and I'd design an Anarchy mini-sub into the device to give you the extended bandwidth. The goal with the midrange/tweeter is the same as I have for any speaker design, good overall smooth response on all axis of measurement. I'd design it to crossover to the subwoofer in the 100Hz range and the sub can use some equalization. That allows for pretty good bandwidth in a small wall-mount TV type design. I'd target 50Hz or so...

As I said before, the limitations are those of the format though. I can get pretty good bandwidth but they would always be limited by their distance from each other (L-R) and mounting location close to the screen and wall. Just the nature of the beast.

If people don't want them though, it is a moot point. I'll just punt on the entire idea and we will move forward with more traditional designs.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio

[mjg100]

I am not concerned with bandwidth much below 100Hz. I would like to be good (f3) to 100Hz. I am wanting SPL and thump starting at 100Hz. That is why I would like on-wall speakers that use a pair of 6.5" drivers with some x-max. Since you do not need to go very low you should be able to use a smaller sealed enclosure. A sub/subs should be used with any HT that uses on-wall speakers, so I do not understand why you would want to have an f3 below 80Hz. With a small speaker you are never going to get low enough that a sub will not be required for HT use. Would the Anarchy drivers be over kill for this application?

[Kevin Haskins]

mjg100 wrote:

I am not concerned with bandwidth much below 100Hz. I would like to be good (f3) to 100Hz. I am wanting SPL and thump starting at 100Hz. That is why I would like on-wall speakers that use a pair of 6.5" drivers with some x-max. Since you do not need to go very low you should be able to use a smaller sealed enclosure. A sub/subs should be used with any HT that uses on-wall speakers, so I do not understand why you would want to have an f3 below 80Hz. With a small speaker you are never going to get low enough that a sub will not be required for HT use. Would the Anarchy drivers be over kill for this application?

It would be the wrong tool if your goal was 100Hz.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio

[mjg100]

Thanks for the info. I guess it is not what I am looking for.

[Pikefish]

I wouldn't like a flat panel speaker, but then I'm someone that winds my own coils and comes to THIS forum, to read about drivers like these. Since we're waiving that skew, lets go a step further and I'll try imagine what matters to someone that would like speakers around their TV. I'm usually pretty good at imagining what will blow people away, and together maybe we'll all average out some truths.

Looks have to be unobtusive if it's going around the TV, preferably available with options like the finish so it integrates visually. Snap-on silver/black/chrome grilles maybe? Price is also important because it's supposedly a step in-between the TV speakers and some main speakers, right? If they sound good they'll be happy customers but if they sound amazing they'll tell their friends, and if they sound impressive then people will ask about them, so performance is the breadwinner if you're not marketing these like bottled water.

To sum up, what matters is whether speakers are Perfromantic.

PS: The lower frequency drivers could be dual and mounted opposingly, maybe even go for the push-pull bonus, since you don't want to make the TV vibrate! Coming with an Anarchy sub would be nice and surely impressive. Anyway, I want to leave the specifics up to you, there are few things more frustrating than being prompted.

[looneybomber]

Even from 100hz up, the other performance downfall is the lack of enclosure depth. Because the enclosures are shallow, you will get more back wave reflections through the cone. You can fill it to the brim with stuffing, but it still won't absorb it all.

So make it look good, sound ok (because sounding awesome is out), and priced not too high.

[durwood]

Performance. Not many soundbar speakers have a correct layout and seem to have cosmetic taking preference due to the WAF factor.

I hope you plan to do some special processing because feeding a squished L/C/R with standard L/C/R 5.1 signals will only result in medicore spacial performance. You will find many currently available soundbars are attempting to expand the soundfield at least through old concept special processing now.

[ironglen]

I saw this poll, but I'm not sure what these speakers are really like- but I use a 5.1 in-ceiling system (center is wall-mounted above 50"plasma). I did this as a left main floor stander would have to be on a 3' stand in a tight corner of a stair landing!, with the right main also in a walkway! I didn't want to mount speakers, nor spend much money in a home I wasn't staying in permanently. This flat panel speaker sounds pretty good for someone with a similar layout: in an apartment/studio or small/difficult space. It also sounds like it may be something people (overly) concerned with aesthetics would want vs the other camp who desire performance first and will meet waf with a little 'finagling'

I went with 6.5" drivers to best handle down to 80hz, but the biggest limitation I've found is off-axis sound as there is a definite sweet spot in the room, and it is not at the primary listening area That said, speaker setup seems of greatest importance to me, greater than speaker performance, so if this system's goal is another option for difficult placement, then it sounds pretty good, and Kevin's off-axis sound goal seems right on target for the product. I'm just not sure of the market in what I believe is a niche-type item...

[mjg100]

looneybomber wrote:

Even from 100hz up, the other performance downfall is the lack of enclosure depth. Because the enclosures are shallow, you will get more back wave reflections through the cone. You can fill it to the brim with stuffing, but it still won't absorb it all.

So make it look good, sound ok (because sounding awesome is out), and priced not too high.

You might be surprised. I have two systems. One system uses these: www.rbhsound.com/661se.shtml and a 18" sealed subwoofer. In my other room I use these: www.rbhsound.com/wm30.shtml The room with the on-wall speakers is a very small room 11'-6" x 13'-6". I use 6 (4 small sealed and 2 larger ported) subwoofers and cross to the subs at 100Hz. The small room is acoustically treated. Sound wise the listening experience is much better in my small room. The subs do not run off and leave the mains. My brother uses a pair of meridian DSP6000's in his room (f3 is 25hz & capable of 114db), can't remember what his center is and a pair of Boston Acoustics for the surround. For movies he prefers listening to my small system over his.

A couple of years ago I installed a WM-30 for a 60" plasma mounted above a fireplace. i was surprised at how well that small speaker did. When I was converting our exercise room over to a small dedicated room I was going to use some in-wall speakers installed in a back box, but I came across a good deal on some WM-30's. I knew how they sounded and bought a set. There is always some thing better out there but I need it to fit my situation, which is small on-wall or in-wall.

[looneybomber]

Too bad you don't live closer to me. I'd be interested to hear them.