Mic'ing Harp

**sonarsound** · **11-07-06, 03:58 AM**

So, I'm glad beeing the first writing on this board.
Hi everyone!

I didn't need to think long about what to ask because there's x-mas time coming soon and with it all the gospel and church concerts. I do a concert every year in the same church for about 700 poeple or so. Now my question:

How do you mic a harp? I did it with two Neumann KM 185 from both sides taking the sound from the body.
It's funny, i did it so many times, but I never ever had enough time to really check it out properly, it sounded always ok, but I'm sure there are better ways to catch the heavenly sound of a harp :-),

cheers,

philipp

**Danny** · **11-07-06, 04:41 AM**

Hi Phillip

To get an ideal sound out of the harp a mic would need to be placed about 2-3metres away however in live sound this also creates a high risk of feedback. You could try miking it near (or even in) one of the sound holes. Your method if it sounds good to you should be alright just make sure that you get the sound from both the top and bottom of the strings and that the sound from one area of it is not louder that other strings

**Matthew Moore** · **11-07-06, 04:44 AM**

Hi Phillip. Great to see you here.

Yes the fun of christmas concerts...mic stands covered with tinsel.

Can I ask a question or 2 before I answer? What other stuff is going on whilst the harp is playing? (i.e., are you likely to have a problem with spill from drummers and such?)

Also, do you have access to any miniature mics like the DPA 4060's?

Matthew

**sonarsound** · **11-07-06, 06:30 AM**

Well, this Year it will be much fun:

A Gospelchoir with about 45 singers, (they bring their own equipement, everybody singing with a 58!!!...)

6 -8 solosingers
keyboards, brasses, guitars, the mentionend harp, flutes, strings...
even playbacks
but until now NO DRUMS, what a lucky guy I am :-)

back to your question, I really don't know what instruments are playing WITH the harp, sometimes she plays solo, sometimes she just plays with the others, but i have to get as close as possible because of the feedbackissues.

the only miniaturemics i own are the beta 98 - but i don't know how to fix them on the harp - (don't want to break the instrument) ,

**Matthew Moore** · **11-07-06, 07:07 AM**

LOL - sounds like fun.

Definitely agree you'll need to get in close. The reason I asked about miniatures is that you can sometimes drop them in the holes a little way and take out a bit of mid to compensate. the only problem there can be that they can pick up the pedal noise / movement if they are touching the body. However they can sound pretty good - a bit in yer face - but good.

It sounds like what you are doing is ok already. It might be worth trying different sound holes. I second Danny's comment about making sure you get a balanced sound. Also have you checked for any phase problems using the 2 mics? If it sounds ok to you then I guess there's probably no need 2.

Matthew

**sonarsound** · **11-07-06, 07:21 AM**

I had great results with dropping the beta 98 in the f-holes of a cello or contra bass, when i find a hole in the harp, i'll try like this :-)
it's not that easy to catch the high notes like the bass strings and get a good balance, perhaps i try one 98 and then put the km 185 wherever it's neccessary to get a balance.
all in all I guess the challenge this time will be to avoid a total chaos on stage with this about 100 artists because the stage isn't that big....

but thank you all very much, i will report how the concert was

philipp

**Matthew Moore** · **11-07-06, 08:09 AM**

I'd love to see the harpist's face if he/she knew we were saying things like "dropping a beta 58 in the hole". hee hee

good luck.

Let us know how it goes.

Matthew

**sonarsound** · **11-07-06, 06:12 PM**

or even the "f-holes"...
baahh, sorry, couldn't resist. sooo cheap...

but I sure will report, how it went,

cheers,

philipp

**Bryan Nemecek** · **11-07-06, 06:38 PM**

Quote:

sonarsound wrote:

Well, this Year it will be much fun:

A Gospelchoir with about 45 singers, (they bring their own equipement, everybody singing with a 58!!!...)

6 -8 solosingers
keyboards, brasses, guitars, the mentionend harp, flutes, strings...
even playbacks
but until now NO DRUMS, what a lucky guy I am :-)

Hi, with all the talk about microphones, let me ask...what microphones will you use for the flutes, strings (if live musicians), guitars, and brass section?

Also what kind of sound system will you be using??
Are there monitors on stage? If so, how many and for who?
What mixer are you going to be using?
Do you have an on-stage monitor mixer?

**sonarsound** · **11-08-06, 04:05 AM**

For strings I use almost ever my neumann km 184 or 185, for wood flutes also, a metal flute can also be taken with a sm 57 :-)
For Cellos and Contrabass I've allready explaiened my good results with beta 98.

I have only 4 Monitorlines with 6 Monitors on stage, feeding from FoH, the Gospelchoir with their 45 SM 58 (I still can't believe they're working like this...) are going to a submixer on stage and they give me a L/R Signal to my desk.

On monitors (K&F CA 106, a copy of the d&b E3) there only will be keys', playbacks and solosingers, every other mic isn't possible on monitors, because as I said above

it's a church

with long

long

REEEEEEEVEEERB

over 6 sec I guess

So also the FoH System is very small,
a Midas Venice 320 (because there is no place for FoH anyway in the church...)
and two K&F 1201 with two little subs.

They work perfectly just to lift the things from stage needing a little amplifing. That's been my setup for years but as the gig keeps growing every year I have to make sure I don't need more than the 28 channels from the Venice 320.

Next time perhaps everything goes digital...

**sonarsound** · **11-08-06, 04:12 AM**

I've forgotten brass and guitars:

I don't think, the brasssection needs amplification in that room, but for the recording it would be nice.
because it's always an issue with the budget there I simply will put them SM 58 on straight stands.

Electric Guitars with SM57 or Sennheiser 509
Acoustic Guitars with D.I.
Classical Guitars...

SHALL NOT PLAY THERE

;-)

this is even harder than harp, i really don't have a clou what to do with this quiet little classical guitars to get them big and loud. I normally put a 185 in front (between body and neck) as close as possible.

**Matthew Moore** · **11-08-06, 05:58 AM**

I like your philosphy of lifting things, I struggle with engineers who put everything through just cos they think they should.

6 seconds of verb...ooooh...I hear ya :holycow:

Sorry to "harp" on again, but I do like dropping miniatures in the sound hole of guitars. I found a little blue tack holds the cable in place without damaging the guitar. I never understood why someone would not want me to gaffa tape their nice acoustic.

Other than that, I do as you do, sdc in between neck and body angled towards hole and then jiggle until I get as much volume as poss without too much boom. Usually end up knocking 120 or 240 out anyway.

And why do the players keep moving?

I saw an ad recently for a clamp device that fits round the guitar (with soft feet) and allows a mic to be mounted. It goes wherever the player goes. More elegant than frank fillipetti's idea with James Taylor of lolly sticks and gaffa!

think it was in a recent issue of SOS

M

**sonarsound** · **11-08-06, 07:53 AM**

Quote:

Matthew Moore wrote:

I like your philosphy of lifting things, I struggle with engineers who put everything through just cos they think they should.

I saw an ad recently for a clamp device that fits round the guitar (with soft feet) and allows a mic to be mounted.

M

Superbe idea! Do you have a link of this?

Thanks,

Philipp

**Matthew Moore** · **11-08-06, 09:16 AM**

http://www.exploraudio.com/livestrings_5_1.htm

Just found it.

If you get one, perhaps you could report back?

Matthew

**drf** · **11-09-06, 03:43 AM**

that live strings device looks brilliant!! I think I'll be playing with clamps etc in the shed later on. only problem i can see is vibrations coming back through the clamp and mic clamp causing discoloration.

As far as classical guitar micing goes heres my humble contribution:

I have found that an SM58 placed 2-3 inches from the strings directly above the 12th fret seems to work best. The natural position of the guitarist seeems to prevent background sound leaking in when the gain is turned up to pickup soft nylon strings, also the pickup patern of the mic is ample to get sound from the fingers and hole. According to "modern recording techniques, fourth edition" the best place is with a condeser mic about 6" t a foot above the centre of the bridge, this will give the flatest response with no apparent harmonic exagerations (not entirely sure what they mean there). All this is of course dependent on the usual characteristics of the performance, other instruments and room accoustics.

hope this helps

drf

**Matthew Moore** · **11-09-06, 04:47 AM**

Must admit I've never tried a 58 on a nylon string.

My only thoughts on this would be that 2-3" is quite close and may put some players off - particularly if they are likely to be playing up around that area and also that with the 58 being quite low sensitivity (and with that distance) you might only need a little movement from the guitarist to lose quite a lot of sound (inverse square and all that) Hey but if it works......! I've been amazed by engineers getting better sounds than me by doing something I would never do. This particularly hurts when it's my students -

I've learnt many a lesson that way.

Be interesting to see what you find in your shed - nothing like the look on a guitarists fase as you move towards them with a big steel G clamp accompanied by the words "this won't hurt a bit"...

I hadn't thought about your point with resonances through the clamp mount. I wonder if you can stick a shock mount on the end or whether this will be too cumbersome? It might make things uncomfortable for the player with balance issues and such....

**drf** · **11-09-06, 07:03 AM**

the first setup i used with the 58 for guitar was in a stage theatre for a solo artist, I hadn't really thought about the implications if their were other instruments playing (which is the case for th OP) so I reckon you might be quite right in thinking its not the most ideal setup. the other time I have had to mic a nylon was in a recording studio (sorta, think room with blankets & computer). But it never seizes to amaze me what works and what is just plain wacky.

**tloredo** · **11-10-06, 01:51 AM**

Hi folks,

Quote:

Matthew Moore wrote:

I saw an ad recently for a clamp device that fits round the guitar (with soft feet) and allows a mic to be mounted. It goes wherever the player goes. More elegant than frank fillipetti's idea with James Taylor of lolly sticks and gaffa!

Thanks for the pointer to explorAUDIO, Matt---cool! Scottish folksinger Dougie Maclean has
been doing something along those lines for many years for his live performances. I think
he uses a custom mount rigged by himself or his engineer, with a small omni capsule. This
avoids boominess from being close to the soundhole. It would seem to be a problem in
regard to feedback, but from what I'm told it isn't, perhaps because the mic is close enough
that the gain needn't be too high. Or maybe Dougie uses IEMs!

The first time I saw something commercial like this was at AES 111 back in 2001. AMT
(Applied Microphone Technology) was displaying a new line of instrument-mounted mics.
They've since expanded the line a great deal:

http://www.appliedmicrophone.com/products

Here are the guitar models (Lee Ritenour & Pat Metheney are listed as endorsers!):

http://www.appliedmicrophone.com/ins...profile/Guitar

Alas, they don't yet have a harp model. My recollection from when last I looked into
them is that they are quite expensive. The system does include a mic, partly accounting
for the cost.

As for dropping small mics in a guitar soundhole, it's a hit-or-miss kind of thing.
The sound field *inside* a guitar is really complicated and varies a lot from
instrument to instrument (try putting a mic in there at the end of a stiff wire or
rod and moving it around---it changes drastically with position). In many
instruments (I'd say *most*) there's no place that sounds good. Many
commercial acoustic guitar amplification setups involve a mic in the guitar,
but they typically combine it with a saddle or top pickup; only by combining
both signals can you get a reasonable facsimile of a good guitar sound. But
sometimes you can get lucky and a well-placed internal mic will work.

As for harp, the only time I mic'ed a harp live was to *record* it, so I can't
be of much help there. I used a Jecklin disk to record a trio of harp/oboe/violin,
but as the harpist was featured, I put a pair of AT-831 lapel mics on a
stereo stand in an ORTF configuration in front of the harpist (they were what
I had handy; they didn't block sightlines!). Adding a bit of the ORTF in the
final mix was "just right" for giving the harp a bit more presence.

Peace,
Tom

**tloredo** · **11-10-06, 02:22 AM**

Googling, I found that *Sound on Sound* reviews the LiveGuitar H-clamp in this month's
issue:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov0...rtech_1106.htm

An excuse to shell out the $8 or so it costs to get this nice UK mag here in the US....

-Tom

**drf** · **11-10-06, 02:58 AM**

Quote:

tloredo wrote:

...snip...

As for dropping small mics in a guitar soundhole, it's a hit-or-miss kind of thing.
The sound field *inside* a guitar is really complicated and varies a lot from
instrument to instrument (try putting a mic in there at the end of a stiff wire or
rod and moving it around---it changes drastically with position). In many
instruments (I'd say *most*) there's no place that sounds good. Many
commercial acoustic guitar amplification setups involve a mic in the guitar,
but they typically combine it with a saddle or top pickup; only by combining
both signals can you get a reasonable facsimile of a good guitar sound. But
sometimes you can get lucky and a well-placed internal mic will work.

...snip...

Peace,
Tom

hi Tom, What you said certainly helps to explain some of the difference in soundquality between a cheaper guitar and one with good tone.

**reveller** · **11-30-06, 09:25 PM**

Regarding micing the harp, if you use a cardioid or hypercardioid mic in the soundhole it is likely that you will be affected by the proximity effect which will exaggerate the lower frequencies and create some muddiness.
If there is a decent distance between the harpist and the main speakers, and provided the harpist does not expect to hear herself loudly in a monitor, you will find that relatively close micing with an omnidirectional mic will give you a truer response whenever you get close to the sound holes or the soundboard.
Fortunately, in most instances the level of the harp is not expected to be exceptionally loud.
This is one of the few occasions when an omnidirectional mic may provide a solution in a reinforced environment.

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