Audyssey crossover setting.

[mixello]

Hi All,
I invite you to express your opinion. I was helping my friend to set up his new Denon AVR-1908. I noticed that newer Denon's have next generation of Audyssey Room EQ system. It is much more advanced that in my AVR-2307. Along with other stuff (like 9 band graphic EQ, phase check, very accurate distance measurement) the crossover frequency can be set for each speaker individually. I am wondering how important this is for the sound quality?
My guess is that this is overkill. For the main speakers it's a must, since they should be matched with subwoofer, but for the center and surrounds...? Why don't let the speaker to reproduce whatever it can handle?
Thanks.

[Sonnie]

Just found this post that must have been posted in a moderated forum and moved here, but not ever approved. Sorry about that.

I wouldn't necessarily call it overkill to equalize each speaker. Supposedly Audyssey has figured out how to do it very well and many users have been very well pleased. A flat frequency response should be preferred for most listeners. Probably not as critical on movies as it would be music.

[HClarkx]

mixello wrote:

Hi All,
I invite you to express your opinion. I was helping my friend to set up his new Denon AVR-1908. I noticed that newer Denon's have next generation of Audyssey Room EQ system. It is much more advanced that in my AVR-2307. Along with other stuff (like 9 band graphic EQ, phase check, very accurate distance measurement) the crossover frequency can be set for each speaker individually. I am wondering how important this is for the sound quality?
My guess is that this is overkill. For the main speakers it's a must, since they should be matched with subwoofer, but for the center and surrounds...? Why don't let the speaker to reproduce whatever it can handle?
Thanks.

Ideally you would let each satellite handle what it can, maybe even setting it to large. But, one reason for using a sub is to improve satellite performance by shifting the low frequency load to a sub. For instance, your satellite channels could run short of power if they have to reach sub frequencies or their woofers could reach the end of their linear range when handling low frequencies. For these and a host of similar reasons, conventional wisdom is to crossover at 80Hz unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. For instance, if your sub location is not good and you have no other location choice, you might push the crossovers down.

Harrison

[warpdrive]

My Audyssey in the Onkyo chose a very good crossover frequency for my surrounds (Energy RCMini). It chose 120Hz which is exactly what the Energy owner manual suggested. I also verified for myself that using sweeps that the speaker does drop off starting around 100Hz, so a 120Hz setting is good.

What's weird about Oddyssey in the Onkyo (and many other EQ systems in receivers) is that they tend to choose LARGE for speakres whereas most of the time you want SMALL with a crossover chosen around 20Hz above the -3dB spec for your speaker. I overrided the LARGE setting that Oddyssey chose and picked 70Hz for my mains, (the speaker is rated down to 60Hz -3dB) point. This way I get a very good blend.

I suggest setting the crossover manually for your mains. You should always use SMALL if possible IMO

[Kal Rubinson]

warpdrive wrote:

My Audyssey in the Onkyo chose a very good crossover frequency for my surrounds (Energy RCMini). It chose 120Hz which is exactly what the Energy owner manual suggested. I also verified for myself that using sweeps that the speaker does drop off starting around 100Hz, so a 120Hz setting is good.

What's weird about Oddyssey in the Onkyo (and many other EQ systems in receivers) is that they tend to choose LARGE for speakres whereas most of the time you want SMALL with a crossover chosen around 20Hz above the -3dB spec for your speaker. I overrided the LARGE setting that Oddyssey chose and picked 70Hz for my mains, (the speaker is rated down to 60Hz -3dB) point. This way I get a very good blend.

I suggest setting the crossover manually for your mains. You should always use SMALL if possible IMO

Yes. Audyssey tends to choose LARGE for any speakers with output below 80Hz. It is often necessary to over-ride that choice.

Kal

[HClarkx]

warpdrive wrote:

What's weird about Oddyssey in the Onkyo (and many other EQ systems in receivers) is that they tend to choose LARGE for speakres whereas most of the time you want SMALL with a crossover chosen around 20Hz above the -3dB spec for your speaker. I overrided the LARGE setting that Oddyssey chose and picked 70Hz for my mains, (the speaker is rated down to 60Hz -3dB) point. This way I get a very good blend.

I agree, it is strange, but there is some good reason for it, albeit a seemingly obscure one. I think the general rule for Audyssey and I think others is that if a speaker plays well down to 80 Hz, then it is pegged as large. I've forgotten what that reason is. I'll call the fellow at Audyssey that told me this and report back.

Incidentally, I agree with you, it's best to have about a 20Hz margin when you choose a crossover frequency. Most crossovers are designed expecting that both speakers can produce well past the crossover point. If a driver rolls off too quickly, the blend of the two in that roll-off region will show a dip in the blended SPL. But, Audyssey can extend both speakers somewhat by adding up to 10db of boost and does this when it calculates the optimum blend in the crossover region. For instance, if your mains have a -3db point at 60 Hz, but have enough output at 40Hz for Audyssey to bring them up to -3db at 40 Hz, then you can crossover at 60 Hz instead of pushing up to 80 Hz to provide the desired 20 Hz margin. Of course, going below 80 Hz rarely makes sense so it's just as well to have the 20Hz margin the speaker provides plus some additional margin that Audyssey might crank in.

I've seen before and after plots for my mains and sub, and could see that Audyssey was correcting my mains well below the crossover point. Of course these were individual speaker corrections and did not reflect the additional tweaking that Audyssey does after you choose the crossover point. Incidentally, I'm speaking here of the Sound EQ. The receiver implementations may work a bit differently. I know the computing horsepower in the receiver implementations is limited so the optimization in the crossover regions may not be quite as extensive. In the Sound EQ you are presented with all feasible crossover options (even for "Large" speakers). The ones higher on the list are preferred but the lower ones can be used with only a small sacrifice in the resulting blend.

Harrison

[Kal Rubinson]

HClarkx wrote:

Of course these were individual speaker corrections and did not reflect the additional tweaking that Audyssey does after you choose the crossover point. Incidentally, I'm speaking here of the Sound EQ. The receiver implementations may work a bit differently. I know the computing horsepower in the receiver implementations is limited so the optimization in the crossover regions may not be quite as extensive. In the Sound EQ you are presented with all feasible crossover options (even for "Large" speakers). The ones higher on the list are preferred but the lower ones can be used with only a small sacrifice in the resulting blend.

AFAIK, the built-in Audyssey in the AVRs and prepros does not do any further adjustments for crossover since that selection is made after Audyssey has done all its work. With the AudysseyPro software, however, the crossover recommendations are provided even for the AVRs and prepros. Whether they have the DSP horsepower to do what the SEQ does is another story and we will have to await some hands-on test to find out.

Kal

[HClarkx]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

AFAIK, the built-in Audyssey in the AVRs and prepros does not do any further adjustments for crossover since that selection is made after Audyssey has done all its work. With the AudysseyPro software, however, the crossover recommendations are provided even for the AVRs and prepros. Whether they have the DSP horsepower to do what the SEQ does is another story and we will have to await some hands-on test to find out.
Kal

Thanks for the information. I should probably stick to providing thoughts on use of the SEQ since that's all I have. I do, however, expect to have a Denon 3808CI fairly soon since that's the only economical way to get DynamicEQ. I've heard DynamicEQ and it's quite something. I'll use the MultEQ XT Pro (or whatever it's called) in the 3808CI for Movies (with the SEQ bypassed) and bypass the MultEQ in the 3808CI and enable the SEQ for CDs (to get the extra resolution the SEQ offers and maybe a different EQ curve).

Harrison