Best screen for me

[cynical2]

Thanks for the input, Bill and mech. I still would like to get Todd's input before I move forward with painting. Not by any means attempting to slow down input from others whatsoever, but I definitely would like for Todd to weigh in with his expertise.

To be honest, I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from all of Tiddler's (extensive and impressive) experimentation. I'm not 100% sure what pieces of experimentation are "done and proven" and what is still a work in progress. I'm inclined to see the Easy-flex system as done, while the experimentation on pearl topcoats is still going on. Is that accurate?

Anyway, my thread has gotten a bit unweildy with info scattered throughout, so I'm going to restate the background and the current request in this post and then PM tiddler asking for input. When given a specific request, he has a way of cutting through it all to make a great paint recommendation for any circumstances.

Given my preference for rolling, and the fact that I can't get Foamcore (required for CGiii) in a big enough size for my screen, it seems to me that Easy-flex (perhaps with topcoat) is the logical way to go. Curious what shade, topcoat (if any), and what additives (if any) Todd recommends.

Background:
Room dimensions: 18'5" x 15' x 7'10" ceiling
Seating: Back row (elevated 1 foot): 16'6" Front Row: 10'6"'. Probably either 5 seats in the back and 4 in the front or 4/3.
Screen Location: on one of the 15'walls
Screen size: 72H x 128W, 147" diagonal 16:9
Lighting: Basement room with doors and two small "basement windows" (15"H x 30"W or so)...I can control the light in the room to be dark anytime I want.
Walls: Medium beige
Ceiling: White acoustic-type (rough surface) drop ceiling, with white supports on 2' centers. The white supports are metal (reflective), on 2' centers in both directions, and about 3/4" wide. Painting the drop ceiling is a bad option for me...the ceiling is expensive, was here when I moved in (and I've been unable to locate matching replacement tiles), and matches the rest of the finished basement.
Flooring: Beige carpet

Projector: Panasonic PT-AX100U, arrived Monday
DVD Player: Toshiba HD-A2, arrived last week

Desired screen characteristics:
1. Sharpen the picture a bit. The edges of the text on the projector menu seem a bit soft to me. It looks similar to one of Tiddler's pics in another thread:

WOP + Flat Latex <> 4xPearl Clear Coated Gray
2. Brighten the image a bit (gain ~1.1-1.3) while maintaining a reasonable viewing cone. The worst seat in the house will be 1/2 screen width off axis while being 1 screen width away from the screen. So, I'm willing to sacrifice viewing cone at the edges for an improved image in the location of the spectators.
3. Not an absolute requirement, but definitely would prefer a paint mix that's "rollable"...and preferable a formulation that is relatively robust to application expertise. In other words, something that I don't have to possess tiddler's skill to have it turn out well. I'm not a horrible painter, and will do the best I can...but, I'm no tiddler either.
4. Something that will do well with low-moderate ambient light...wife may want to read a book in the same room, at the same time, that I'm using the projector.
5. I'm considering doing a flippable screen, so I'd like a reco for both white and grey. I'd like both screens to have the gain as mentioned above (~1.1-1.3).

Based on the above characteristics, my current thinking is straight UPW with a matte poly for the white side, and Easy-Flex-05 with matte poly on the grey side. No idea if any additives should or should not be in the topcoat. I'd be most appreciative of any help on:
1. Substrate. I'm thinking that I may want to go with a floating screen, leaving the option for backlighting with rope light (similar to the mechman design). The other option is simply painting the wall.
2. Is primer needed?
3. Basecoat. Paint/color/tint. # of coats.
4. Top coat. I assume some topcoat is needed to achieve the desired gain. Is it Matte Poly only? With Pearl? With "silver"?

My apologies for rehashing some of this. But, as I mentioned, I thought it may be helpful to pull all relevant (current) info into one post, given that my needs have evolved with the more that I learn.

FYI, I happened to be at HD tonite, and picked up a gallon of Kilz2, a gallon of UPW 1050 (which I can take back to get tinted), and a quart of Behr Matter Poly 780 (despite the fact that the HD paint employee swore they don't carry Behr poly..."You'll need to get Minwax.") I walked up and down every aisle for about 1/2 hour but eventually found it. Though I didn't find one lousy 3/16" roller in the whole store. 1/4" was the thinnest, so I don't have a roller yet. I also haven't been to the craft store for topcoat additives, if needed.

BTW, how much paint/poly will it take for each coat on my screen?

Lastly, regarding frames. I've read about mech's design and bud's design, and read through the sticky...but if there's any further input for frame design (either on existing or new designs), I'd love to hear it. I'm not sure that I have the skill to pull off any of the described frames.

[mechman]

Jim,

I've never seen the room dimensions before. Is a 147"screen possible with a 7'10" ceiling? Are there no outlets on that wall? I know that with my HC3000 and my 7'9" ceiling the bottom of the screen would be close to the floor. Have you viewed anything that size in that room Jim? Seems huge!

mech

[Tiddler]

< < < NOTE: This reply is a work in progress. I will add to it as time permits. I will remove this note when I think I have covered all the bases. > > >

cynical2 wrote:

Thanks for the input, Bill and mech. I still would like to get Todd's input before I move forward with painting. Not by any means attempting to slow down input from others whatsoever, but I definitely would like for Todd to weigh in with his expertise.

To be honest, I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from all of Tiddler's (extensive and impressive) experimentation. I'm not 100% sure what pieces of experimentation are "done and proven" and what is still a work in progress. I'm inclined to see the Easy-flex system as done, while the experimentation on pearl topcoats is still going on. Is that accurate?

Yes the EasyFlex is a fully developed and presented DIY Painted Screen Solution. I have been building on that work with experimentation that extends both towards even simpler one-can solutions with the Behr Sheen Experiments and towards higher performance solutions utilizing Pearl Clear Coats. There are some loose end dangling at the moment but I am going to wrap up the experimentation and present some clear described solutions soon.

Anyway, my thread has gotten a bit unweildy with info scattered throughout, so I'm going to restate the background and the current request in this post and then PM tiddler asking for input. When given a specific request, he has a way of cutting through it all to make a great paint recommendation for any circumstances.

Thank you for gathering all the pertinent info together in one post. I hope your confidence in my efforts to make reasonable suggestion is not misplaced.

Given my preference for rolling, and the fact that I can't get Foamcore (required for CGiii) in a big enough size for my screen, it seems to me that Easy-flex (perhaps with topcoat) is the logical way to go. Curious what shade, topcoat (if any), and what additives (if any) Todd recommends.

Background:
Room dimensions: 18'5" x 15' x 7'10" ceiling
Seating: Back row (elevated 1 foot): 16'6" Front Row: 10'6"'. Probably either 5 seats in the back and 4 in the front or 4/3.
Screen Location: on one of the 15'walls
Screen size: 72H x 128W, 147" diagonal 16:9
Lighting: Basement room with doors and two small "basement windows" (15"H x 30"W or so)...I can control the light in the room to be dark anytime I want.
Walls: Medium beige
Ceiling: White acoustic-type (rough surface) drop ceiling, with white supports on 2' centers. The white supports are metal (reflective), on 2' centers in both directions, and about 3/4" wide. Painting the drop ceiling is a bad option for me...the ceiling is expensive, was here when I moved in (and I've been unable to locate matching replacement tiles), and matches the rest of the finished basement.
Flooring: Beige carpet

Like everyone else I would suggest you consider painting the walls a darker color. They don't have to be really dark. For example a Sky Blue is better than beige. A navy blue would be great and flat black would be perfect but quite unattractive. The ceiling tile represent the largest area of the ceiling so while painting or coating the rails would be a good idea it is not as significant as the tiles. The area immediately in front of the screen is most critical. If there is enough clearance around the tile you could cover them with a dark colored cloth. Not all, just the first 2 or three rows right at the screen. Even blue denim material would be an improvement and could be coordinated with some nice wall colors. If you don't want to play with the irreplaceable tiles then cut some styrofoam insulation to the right size and cover it with a suteable cloth. Just use straight pins in the back to hold the cloth in place. A nice area rug could be layed out in front of the seating area to dampen the beige carpet. I have seen rooms where the walls were painted darker colors and the wood work a white. It still looks atractive but the major surfaces were then less reflective. As I have suggested to others you can do some very nice things with draperies. Draperies also provide some acoustical improvements too. Anything you can do to make the surfaces in the room less reflective and more light absorbent will improve your viewing experience.

Projector: Panasonic PT-AX100U, arrived Monday
DVD Player: Toshiba HD-A2, arrived last week

Desired screen characteristics:
1. Sharpen the picture a bit. The edges of the text on the projector menu seem a bit soft to me. It looks similar to one of Tiddler's pics in another thread:

WOP + Flat Latex <> 4xPearl Clear Coated Gray
2. Brighten the image a bit (gain ~1.1-1.3) while maintaining a reasonable viewing cone. The worst seat in the house will be 1/2 screen width off axis while being 1 screen width away from the screen. So, I'm willing to sacrifice viewing cone at the edges for an improved image in the location of the spectators.
3. Not an absolute requirement, but definitely would prefer a paint mix that's "rollable"...and preferable a formulation that is relatively robust to application expertise. In other words, something that I don't have to possess tiddler's skill to have it turn out well. I'm not a horrible painter, and will do the best I can...but, I'm no tiddler either.
4. Something that will do well with low-moderate ambient light...wife may want to read a book in the same room, at the same time, that I'm using the projector.
5. I'm considering doing a flippable screen, so I'd like a reco for both white and grey. I'd like both screens to have the gain as mentioned above (~1.1-1.3).

Based on the above characteristics, my current thinking is straight UPW with a matte poly for the white side, and Easy-Flex-05 with matte poly on the grey side. No idea if any additives should or should not be in the topcoat. I'd be most appreciative of any help on:
1. Substrate. I'm thinking that I may want to go with a floating screen, leaving the option for backlighting with rope light (similar to the mechman design). The other option is simply painting the wall.
2. Is primer needed?
3. Basecoat. Paint/color/tint. # of coats.
4. Top coat. I assume some topcoat is needed to achieve the desired gain. Is it Matte Poly only? With Pearl? With "silver"?

My apologies for rehashing some of this. But, as I mentioned, I thought it may be helpful to pull all relevant (current) info into one post, given that my needs have evolved with the more that I learn.

FYI, I happened to be at HD tonite, and picked up a gallon of Kilz2, a gallon of UPW 1050 (which I can take back to get tinted), and a quart of Behr Matter Poly 780 (despite the fact that the HD paint employee swore they don't carry Behr poly..."You'll need to get Minwax.") I walked up and down every aisle for about 1/2 hour but eventually found it. Though I didn't find one lousy 3/16" roller in the whole store. 1/4" was the thinnest, so I don't have a roller yet. I also haven't been to the craft store for topcoat additives, if needed.

BTW, how much paint/poly will it take for each coat on my screen?

Lastly, regarding frames. I've read about mech's design and bud's design, and read through the sticky...but if there's any further input for frame design (either on existing or new designs), I'd love to hear it. I'm not sure that I have the skill to pull off any of the described frames.

I don't know of any substrates that will make a 147" screen. It seems you will have to paint the wall. That rules out a flippable screen, I think.

[cynical2]

mechman wrote:

Jim,

I've never seen the room dimensions before. Is a 147"screen possible with a 7'10" ceiling? Are there no outlets on that wall? I know that with my HC3000 and my 7'9" ceiling the bottom of the screen would be close to the floor. Have you viewed anything that size in that room Jim? Seems huge!

mech

Yep, it is HUGE...but what can I say, that's the size the family liked (including me, so I can't blame them ). We watched the final "Rocky" movie on it and the experience was incredible (and it wasn't due to the quality of the flick). After the movie, my daughter said "I kept thinking I was at the theater, but then I'd realize that I was sitting on the floor so I must be at home."

The outlets are what actually drove the final size. The final size gives me room for about a 2.5-3" border around the screen. At this size, the border will go very near the ceiling and down to the top of the outlets. Who knows, if not for that, we may have gone even BIGGER.

The projector gives full control on location of image height...it can be above the top of the image, below the bottom of the image, or anywhere in between. The flexibility that it affords is what allows the image to be that large. I was originally looking at the Optoma and Mitsu projectors, but they basically locked you in on the vertical angle. In large part, that's why I ended up spending a little more for the Panny.

[mechman]

cynical2 wrote:

Yep, it is HUGE...but what can I say, that's the size the family liked (including me, so I can't blame them ). We watched the final "Rocky" movie on it and the experience was incredible (and it wasn't due to the quality of the flick). After the movie, my daughter said "I kept thinking I was at the theater, but then I'd realize that I was sitting on the floor so I must be at home."

The outlets are what actually drove the final size. The final size gives me room for about a 2.5-3" border around the screen. At this size, the border will go very near the ceiling and down to the top of the outlets. Who knows, if not for that, we may have gone even BIGGER.

The projector gives full control on location of image height...it can be above the top of the image, below the bottom of the image, or anywhere in between. The flexibility that it affords is what allows the image to be that large. I was originally looking at the Optoma and Mitsu projectors, but they basically locked you in on the vertical angle. In large part, that's why I ended up spending a little more for the Panny.

That's good! And an excellent point regarding pj's - image shift.

mech

[Tiddler]

I agree lens shift is a wonderful thing that all "Home" theater projectors should have. At the same time I would say that concerns about doing a small amount of keystone correction are over exaggerated. I have to tilt my pj a bit and do a couple of degrees of keystone correction but after playing with this a bit I could not see any degradation in the image unless you go to extremes. If I understand correctly from reviews etc employing extreme lens shift also has some detrimental effect on the projector's output. So again there are always some compromises. You just have to find the best fit for your situation and preferences.

When I bought my Optoma HD72 I did get a chance to see a Panny 900 and a Sanyo. I was not as impressed with the blacks as with a DLP. After my experiences with DR.Doom and his Hitachi LCD I would not hesitate to go LCD. The placement flexibility far out weighs any performance differences in the current crop of LCD projectors. The DLP manufacturers better smarten up and include lens shift or they will soon lose out to LCD manufacturers.

[cynical2]

tiddler wrote:

I agree lens shift is a wonderful thing that all "Home" theater projectors should have. At the same time I would say that concerns about doing a small amount of keystone correction are over exaggerated. I have to tilt my pj a bit and do a couple of degrees of keystone correction but after playing with this a bit I could not see any degradation in the image unless you go to extremes. If I understand correctly from reviews etc employing extreme lens shift also has some detrimental effect on the projector's output. So again there are always some compromises. You just have to find the best fit for your situation and preferences.

When I bought my Optoma HD72 I did get a chance to see a Panny 900 and a Sanyo. I was not as impressed with the blacks as with a DLP. After my experiences with DR.Doom and his Hitachi LCD I would not hesitate to go LCD. The placement flexibility far out weighs any performance differences in the current crop of LCD projectors. The DLP manufacturers better smarten up and include lens shift or they will soon lose out to LCD manufacturers.

Hey, you're supposed to be answering my screen questions, not talking about lens shift!

In all seriousness, I bought into the "avoid keystoning" argument, given that at the time of purchase I had no personal experience with FP's or data to the contrary. I may have been OK using with the Optoma or Mitsu if I employed keystoning, but didn't want to take the chance since I didn't know any better. Keystoning effects would be an interesting study for someone to undertake...i.e. when does it begin to effect image?

Anyway, it's a moot point (for my situation) now. The deed is done, and the ax100u is here. I couldn't be more pleased with what I saw on just my yellow wall...I can't wait to have an even better image with the help of the DIY folks on here.

[Tiddler]

Cynical2, while considering your questions and setup I feel compelled to suggest you consider going with a 120" screen. It will give you more light per square foot and open up more options. Your flippable screen becomes possible and you can reconsider painting and take another look at the laminates.

Of course it's your choice to make but I thought I would ask, before trying to wrap my brain around your deswired size and ambient light issues.

[Tiddler]

Cynical2, I just checked my rollers. Up here in the great white north they are measured in millimeters. The rollers I have been using are 6mm which is 0.23622 inches. For all intents and purposes that may as well be 1/4" nap.

[cynical2]

Todd, thanks for all the info thus far (including on the roller nap).

I would rather sacrifice the flippable screen idea (in fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad idea...it would be tough to make a frame and screen both light enough and strong enough to be a one-man flipping job for a man that size...and I don't think I want to have to deal with two people doing the flipping). So, let's maintain the size but bag the flippability.

Regarding substrates...I was thinking more along the lines of a canvas or vinyl when I went to this size screen. They sell "screen material" on ebay (rubberized vinyl and fiberglass reinforcement, white on one side and black on the other). One thought was to build a frame, cover it with mdf or something, and then cover that with the screen, and then paint the screen.

The main purpose at this point for using a substrate would be to:
1) ensure a flat surface
2) create a "floating screen" that would allow for backlighting when/if I wanted to do that
That being said, I'm content with just painting the wall this time around and getting some viewing time for many months...I can always come back later and build another screen incorporating the DIY community's (likely even more developed) knowledge at that point in time.

A few weeks ago, I had a sample of the stuff sent to me. I put it up on the wall and it was MUCH brighter than my currently painted wall. And, brightness is adequate with the current wall color...but I would definitely prefer for it to be brighter, especially since I'd like to be able to view it with some ambient light. Given the difference in brightness that I saw with the white sample (which the seller said had a gain of 1) compared to my current wall, I feel confident that if I end up with a gain above 1 then my screen will be perfect. I'd love to maintain (or even improve?) the perceived contrast while I'm at it, if possible.

I will definitely do something darker with the walls. I also have located black ceiling tile. A sample is on the way to me...should have it any day now. Just over a buck a square foot, so not bad. I'll do about 6 feet out into the room. I also plan to cover the tile support rails with electrical tape in that area.

To recap, let's plan on just painting the screen on the wall, and maintaining the size...targetting a beautiful screen with a gain over 1, decent with a bit of ambient light, and good CR (hopefully all 3 are possible in one screen). I will also take care of darkening all of the surroundings with dark paint and black ceiling tiles.

Thanks again for all of your (and the others) help!