Best screen for me

[cynical2]

EDIT: Please see post 123, and then 136-143 to see the progress. Almost done...
You can still use this post for background info on room conditions, etc.



Original Post:
Howdy y'all!

First, let me thank Bill, Todd, and mech for their wealth of information (and their willingness to share it). I've spent a LOT of time reading here and some other forum, and I'm to the point where the rubber hits the road.

I am starting on my 1st home theater, which is being built in an existing room in our basement. I'm looking for help selecting the proper screen for my application. Background:

Room dimensions: 18'5" x 15' x 7'10" ceiling
Seating: Back row (elevated 1 foot): 16'6" Front Row: 10'6"'. Probably either 5 seats in the back and 4 in the front or 4/3.
Screen Location: on one of the 15'walls
Screen size: Thinking 58"-60"tall (haven't decided on 16:9 or 2.37:1 CIH screen), though a CIH screen is ~150" diag (compared to ~120" for 16:9), which seems too BIG for my room
Lighting: Basement room with doors and two small "basement windows" (15"H x 30"W or so)...I can control the light in the room to be dark anytime I want.
Walls: Medium beige
Ceiling: White acoustic-type (rough surface) drop ceiling, with white supports on 2' centers. The white supports are metal (reflective), on 2' centers in both directions, and about 3/4" wide. Painting the drop ceiling is a bad option for me...the ceiling is expensive, was here when I moved in (and I've been unable to locate matching replacement tiles), and matches the rest of the finished basement.
Flooring: Beige carpet

Projector: Panasonic PT-AX100U, on order (SDE should be non-existent and I think brightness will be OK)
DVD Player: Toshiba HD-A2 on order

Use will be for DVDs and DirecTV HD-DVR...very little SD programming. Would love to not have it an absolute necessity to make the room completely dark to use it.

Regarding the screen...will almost definitely be a DIY job.

I'm leaning towards starting with a 5x12 piece of Wilsonart...I can always paint it down the road should I want to try that. My debate is around what color I should use (white or gray, and what shade) in this application, in that I would like the option to not have to make the room pitch back to use it (even though I can make it dark if absolutely necessary). For instance, my wife may want to read a book while I'm watching football this fall.

I better stop rambling now, and start listening. I'm particular interested in the laminate color question that I've posed, but please don't let that limit the content of any advice that you're willing to share with an eager learner that's starting on this journey.

A bit OT: Todd, I posted several days ago in the DIY painting sticky asking for clarification on one step in your instructions (just in case you didn't see it). Thanks!

[mechman]

If you have light control go with the Designer White. I'm sure Bill will chime in shortly but you're making a big screen and to keep it bright - it needs to be white. Hey! That rhymes! More dancing bananas:



mech

[wbassett]

Sending an email to Wilsonart right now about a few things and some follow up inquiries... I'll reply shortly

[cynical2]

Mr Mech: Yeah, that seems the safe way to go...but I would really like to be able to watch the projector with some ambient light (may even be incandescent, if my wife wants to read a book). Could I do that with a white screen? I'd be willing to take a little more risk if the folks that know a lot about these things (including yourself) say that if I go with some shade of gray that I'd have a good chance at getting the best of both worlds (e.g. better blacks with the lights down without sacrificing color "pop", and a good image with some ambient lighting).

Bill: Thanks! I look forward to hearing back from you with anything you find out. Any chance you want to give a hint as to what you're checking on with WA (in case beginners like me may learn from your thinking process)? Or in this case is it best that we wait until you also have the answers to any questions you're asking?

For all...One thing to think about is that, given the room configuration, I can also have full control over the location/amount of ambient lighting. I could completely black out the windows, and put in cans/sconces/ropes wherever it's best to (1) give the right amount of light to read a book, and (2) try not to destroy the picture with light. I'd love to hear any suggestions on how I accomplish that (in addition to screen choice).

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[wbassett]

First, you left mech out

He has been every bit as instrumental at showing screen tests as what the original testing was worth. Data only goes so far, as do screenies, but when they are combined they are a powerful representation that anyone can feel comfortable with. Some state 'subjective experience', which is fine, but in the end can a person really tell just from a screenie if something meets what they need? Case in point, someone needed a screen that performs well with controlled lighting as well as some ambient lighting. Based on their setup, they need at least a 1.3 gain screen whether it be gray or white. White is easy, but as far as I know there are no known DIY gray screens that are 1.3 in gain. Sure people say there are, but ask for actual tests. Most of the time it's a subjective comparison to another screen material and that really doesn't show what the actual gain is. When it comes down to how many lumens and fL at the screen a person has available to them, sometimes they really need actual specs and not assumed ones.

cynical2 wrote:

Bill: Thanks! I look forward to hearing back from you with anything you find out. Any chance you want to give a hint as to what you're checking on with WA (in case beginners like me may learn from your thinking process)? Or in this case is it best that we wait until you also have the answers to any questions you're asking?

No secrets, I was relaying some testing information to them and asking about some custom shades specifically for Home Theater use. They are starting to see an increase in sales and may be receptive to a run of some special shades in the Munsell ranges.

cynical2 wrote:

Room dimensions: 18'5" x 15' x 7'10" ceiling
Seating: Back row (elevated 1 foot): 16'6" Front Row: 10'6"'. Probably either 5 seats in the back and 4 in the front or 4/3.
Screen Location: on one of the 15'walls
Screen size: Thinking 58"-60"tall (haven't decided on 16:9 or 2.37:1 CIH screen), though a CIH screen is ~150" diag (compared to ~120" for 16:9), which seems too BIG for my room
Lighting: Basement room with doors and two small "basement windows" (15"H x 30"W or so)...I can control the light in the room to be dark anytime I want.
Walls: Medium beige
Ceiling: White acoustic-type (rough surface) drop ceiling, with white supports on 2' centers. The white supports are metal (reflective), on 2' centers in both directions, and about 3/4" wide. Painting the drop ceiling is a bad option for me...the ceiling is expensive, was here when I moved in (and I've been unable to locate matching replacement tiles), and matches the rest of the finished basement.
Flooring: Beige carpet

Projector: Panasonic PT-AX100U, on order (SDE should be non-existent and I think brightness will be OK)
DVD Player: Toshiba HD-A2 on order

I have an A2 and a Bluray player, and as a replacement to my projector the two that I am looking at are the Mitsubishi HD 1000U and the Panasonic PT-AX100U. Mainly because they are similar to what I have now and I wouldn't have to replace what I already have setup. The Panny is a particularly bright projector and can do very well with ambient lighting. You will be fine with either DW or Fashion Grey. Designer White will actually perform well with that projector and size screen since it has a 1.24 rated gain, but like all white screens, DIY and commercial it will take a hit with a lot of ambient lighting and with Sunlight it will be the worse. Fashion Grey will also perform very well and with your lumen rating you won't have any problems at all maintaining crisp and clean whites. You will need to add a poly coating though to the FG because you have a beginning stage light cannon on your hands. Specular gain is acceptable with lower Lumen projectors, but with the Panny's 2000 Lumen rating you have to knock that specular gain down some, so poly is pretty much a must if you go with Fashion Grey.

I'd say ceiling mount and Designer White sounds like the best fit for you since you can control your lighting. I might take the first two rows of acoustical ceiling tile and change them to a flat or matte black though. You'll be amazed at what a difference that will make. My 1700 lumen projector puts out enough light to bounce off my white ceiling...

This is a test pattern during the day and you can still see what's hitting the ceiling...


And a shot at night with total light control...

The light and colors you see on the wall and ceiling will reflect back on the screen, and a white screen will wash out the fastest. Control that along with your room/ambient lighting and you'll have a spectacular image with Designer White and will even be able to kick the Panny into regular mode during the day and be able to watch a game or other content with some lights on or some indirect sunlight coming in. With a 124" diagonal screen with a 1.24 gain (Designer White) You'll have 16fL of light on the screen which would be a very nice bright and vibrant image. Feed that with the A2 and I think you'll be quite happy!

BTW, the A2 will put out 1080i with SDVDs on the HDMI output (it'll do it on composite too with a 'trick') so I think you'll really like this setup if you decide to go this route.

[cynical2]

wbassett wrote:

First, you left mech out

No I didn't, what do you mean?

wbassett wrote:

He has been every bit as instrumental at showing screen tests as what the original testing was worth. Data only goes so far, as does screenies, but when they are combined they are a powerful representation that anyone can feel comfortable with. Some state 'subjective experience', which is fine, but in the end can a person really tell just from a screenie if something meets what they need? Case in point, someone needed a screen that performs well with controlled lighting as well as some ambient lighting. Based on their setup, they need at least a 1.3 gain screen whether it be gray or white. White is easy, but as far as I know there are no known DIY gray screens that are 1.3 in gain. Sure people say there are, but ask for actual tests. Most of the time it's a subjective comparison to another screen material and that really doesn't show what the actual gain is. When it comes down to how many lumens and fL at the screen a person has available to them, sometimes they really need actual specs and not assumed ones.

Yes, I've seen some of that on some other forums...once people ask for hard data, the only reply is with more screenshots (that you have to take with a grain of salt), and a "Trust me, I've put up a billion screens, and the gain is at least 1.5!"

wbassett wrote:

No secrets, I was relaying some testing information to them and asking about some custom shades specifically for Home Theater use. They are starting to see an increase in sales and may be receptive to a run of some special shades in the Munsell ranges.

Now, THAT WOULD BE AWESOME! Can you have one made for me at the shade you think will be best and get is shipped to Ohio in two weeks?

wbassett wrote:

I have an A2 and a Bluray player, and as a replacement to my projector the two that I am looking at are the Mitsubishi HD 1000U and the Panasonic PT-AX100U. Mainly because they are similar to what I have now and I wouldn't have to replace what I already have setup. The Panny is a particularly bright projector and can do very well with ambient lighting. You will be fine with either DW or Fashion Grey. Designer White will actually perform well with that projector and size screen since it has a 1.24 rated gain, but like all white screens, DIY and commercial it will take a hit with a lot of ambient lighting and with Sunlight it will be the worse. Fashion Grey will also perform very well and with your lumen rating you won't have any problems at all maintaining crisp and clean whites. You will need to add a poly coating though to the FG because you have a beginning stage light cannon on your hands. Specular gain is acceptable with lower Lumen projectors, but with the Panny's 2000 Lumen rating you have to knock that specular gain down some, so poly is pretty much a must if you go with Fashion Grey.

I've read the sticky, and still trying to wrap my arms around the meaning of specular gain. Perhaps I should reread to get a better understanding...

wbassett wrote:

I'd say ceiling mount and Designer White sounds like the best fit for you since you can control your lighting. I might take the first two rows of acoustical ceiling tile and change them to a flat or matte black though. You'll be amazed at what a difference that will make. My 1700 lumen projector puts out enough light to bounce off my white ceiling...

This is a test pattern during the day and you can still see what's hitting the ceiling...<snip>

Wow, definitely noticeable. I will look into black tiles for the front 3 rows (6 feet).

wbassett wrote:

BTW, the A2 will put out 1080i with SDVDs on the HDMI output (it'll do it on composite too with a 'trick') so I think you'll really like this setup if you decide to go this route.

Awesome...is the "trick" documented?


Does your reco change for a CIH screen that is even wider? Also, do you have any experience with using WA for curved screens? Seems like it would be a great substrate for that purpose...

[benven]

wbassett wrote:

White is easy, but as far as I know there are no known DIY gray screens that are 1.3 in gain. Sure people say there are, but ask for actual tests. Most of the time it's a subjective comparison to another screen material and that really doesn't show what the actual gain is.

Hi guys. There is a measured DIY gray screen that has a gain greater than 1.3. It was my creation, CGIII. It was measured to have a gain of 1.8, a half gain of 30 degrees and an RGB balance of 224/214/217.

[mechman]

benven wrote:

Hi guys. There is a measured DIY gray screen that has a gain greater than 1.3. It was my creation, CGIII. It was measured to have a gain of 1.8, a half gain of 30 degrees and an RGB balance of 224/214/217.

You know Ben that formula was so trampled and trodden elsewhere, why don't you do a new write up here? About the only thing I can remember is you used powders. What do you say?



mech

[mechman]

Jim,

There is a Designer White vs. Fashion Grey thread. The pics at the end are as color accurate as I can get. I put a bit of time into screen shots.

I also love the dance banana!



mech

[wbassett]

benven wrote:

Hi guys. There is a measured DIY gray screen that has a gain greater than 1.3. It was my creation, CGIII. It was measured to have a gain of 1.8, a half gain of 30 degrees and an RGB balance of 224/214/217.

Sorry benven... guess I never saw the gain info on that. Who and how were the gain tests done if you don't mind sharing