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Value Electronics' 9th annual Shootout event

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#1 ·
Our 2013 Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation event will be held in our new store at 35 Popham Rd, Scarsdale, NY as follows:

Day one, 6:00 PM EST, Friday, May 10th and Day two, 6:00 PM EST, Saturday, May 11th 2013.

We'll have up to 70 individuals attending and participating so if you are interested please send me an email with the subject "can I have a seat at VE's 2013 Shootout." The event will also be webcast live in HD and moderated by our staff. Select questions and comments will be passed to our panel of experts for reply.

Our Shootout has proven to be a ‘must attend’ event among true HD enthusiasts and industry leaders, and this year the Shootout has continued to gain in popularity so you can expect to see many of the top industry VIPs participating. With the great advancements of LED and PDP technologies, this will be a great year for flat panel displays.

Many big announcements and surprises are planned so if you are not attending in person be sure to mark your calendar so you can participate online with our HD webcast.

Enjoy!

-Robert
 
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#102 ·
Hello,
Congrats to Samsung for winning the audience vote and be crowned the overall winner at the 2013 Shootout. I am truly happy to see a PDP win again.

I could not agree more about taking the time to compare the Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, et al offerings. Especially with the ZT/VT60 Series considering just how close the results were and with the Calibrators choosing the Panasonic's as the winner.

Robert, I am so happy to see so much industry coverage devoted to the event.
Best,
Jack
 
#108 ·
Ps that tablet will be a great up grade over an iPhone all the pictures on this site will be nice to see without having to zoom in all the time. We only have one laptop and its the wife's if I leave her stuff alone she lets me make the "informed" decisions on our gear. Maybe I can talk her into new dual subs!! Okay I know better than that one can dream right. A great new display trumps a laptop any day!!
 
#119 ·
Wanted to post some thoughts on the shootout - sorry it has taken me a while but it has been a busy week. I preface my comments by saying they are only my opinions and observations - I don't believe they are scientific fact and neither should you.

I was at Saturday night's shootout and I think I am fairly unbiased in my views - I try to be fair to all the TVs and give them all a fair shake. I have a Pioneer Kuro KRP-600M but don't feel my very existence depends on that TV remaining the reference forever. I will be very happy the day there is a TV that is much better than the Kuro that makes me feel I need to upgrade my main TV. Based on what I saw at the shootout, that day may be coming soon - perhaps as soon as next year. In the last few years, I have recommended and helped friends and relatives buy Panasonic plasmas, Samsung plasmas, LG LCDs, and Samsung LCDs - whatever fits the situation and budget of the person I am trying to help.

First off, I want to thank Robert, his family and the guys who did the calibrations and work to set up the shootout. Great job as always.

Second, congratulations to Samsung and the F8500 plasma on winning the shootout. Samsung clearly put a lot of resources into developing this plasma and it is a fantastic TV. As someone said at the shootout, the light output of this TV is a revolution in plasma development. I couldn't agree more. The increased light output was evident compared to the also excellent Panasonic VT60 and ZT60. Samsung deserves acknowledgement and praise for their work this year. That said, I believe all three plasmas are truly terrific TVs - there is a much bigger gulf from any of the LCDs to the plasmas than between the plasmas. I truly can't imagine anyone not being happy with the F8500, ZT60, or VT60. How close these TVs are was really brought home to me after the official shootout when plasmas were compared to the Kuro 50" using the Kuro experience disk. Yes, the Kuro could achieve slightly better black, but all four of these TVs were so incredibly close on this black level torture test material in a dark environment that without the others next to it, I don't think you could be disappointed in the black level. It was also clear to me that the F8500, VT60 and ZT60 are clearly better than the Kuro in a moderately lit room - the filters on the newer TVs have advanced in the last 5 years. This moderately to brightly lit room difference is larger than the difference between these TVs in a black cave in my opinion.

As for the LCDs, in almost everything, the plasmas were better. Even for those that like lots of light output, the F8500 now does that, so I don't see much reason to buy one of these LCDs unless you just don't like plasma. The differences between the 3 LCDs and 3 plasmas could not have been more evident than it was on the scene from The Dark Knight Rises - very dark scene with lots of blacks in a dark room. Batman and Cat woman's costumes were shiny, black and full of detail on the plasmas. Even straight on with the LCDs, they couldn't match the depth of the plasmas. I feel this is due not just to very black blacks, but sufficient shadow detail - all three plasmas were in another category compared to the LCDs.

I was unpleasantly surprised at the quality of the Sony. I was looking forward to seeing the 4K display that goes for $7000 in 65" size, especially since Sony has designed some very good LCDs in recent years. What a disappointment. This TV simply could not produce a good black level - much worse than other recent Sony TVs. You think for $7000 they could build a full array local dimming TV even with 4K resolution, but I guess not. Motion was not good on this TV either, and even though you expect poor off-access viewing from an LCD panel, especially a non-IPS panel, this TV had the worst off-angle performance of any medium to high end TV I have seen in several years. Literally moving a foot or two to the side would significantly degrade the picture. On the bright side, at the end we put on some 4K material from the special Sony server and on some of the bright images, particularly still images, the resolution was amazing looking. Very impressive clarity and detail. Problem was you could only notice a significant difference from 1080p if you were about 5 feet from the display. By the time you were 8 feet back, you lost this benefit on the 65" display - on an 84" you would be able to be further back and still see the advantage. The other problem was that on dark scenes such as from The Amazing Spider Man, the poor black level hurt the picture more than the extra resolution helped it. My takeaway from this TV is that the regular indicators of making a great TV - black level, contrast ratio, color accuracy, motion resolution, processing, etc. are more important to get right than having 4K (no reason you can't have both but we don't have that yet - maybe Oled will do that). Other takeaway is that other than the resolution, this is a very ordinary panel - not high end by LCD standards at all. If you want a Sony, find an HX950.

The Panasonic WT60 was not good by high end TV standards, particularly in black level, but the off-angle performance of the IPS panel should not be dismissed. If you are getting an LCD, and you sit dead center, get a Samsung or other VA panel for the better blacks. If you have several people watching it, you really need to consider an IPS panel as any advantage of the VA panels disappears quickly at even small off-angle viewing and the IPS starts to look much better.

Sorry for the long post - I get paid by the word usually. Just kidding. Sort of.
 
#122 ·
Wanted to post some thoughts on the shootout - sorry it has taken me a while but it has been a busy week. I preface my comments by saying they are only my opinions and observations - I don't believe they are scientific fact and neither should you.

I was at Saturday night's shootout and I think I am fairly unbiased in my views - I try to be fair to all the TVs and give them all a fair shake. I have a Pioneer Kuro KRP-600M but don't feel my very existence depends on that TV remaining the reference forever. I will be very happy the day there is a TV that is much better than the Kuro that makes me feel I need to upgrade my main TV. Based on what I saw at the shootout, that day may be coming soon - perhaps as soon as next year. In the last few years, I have recommended and helped friends and relatives buy Panasonic plasmas, Samsung plasmas, LG LCDs, and Samsung LCDs - whatever fits the situation and budget of the person I am trying to help.

First off, I want to thank Robert, his family and the guys who did the calibrations and work to set up the shootout. Great job as always.

Second, congratulations to Samsung and the F8500 plasma on winning the shootout. Samsung clearly put a lot of resources into developing this plasma and it is a fantastic TV. As someone said at the shootout, the light output of this TV is a revolution in plasma development. I couldn't agree more. The increased light output was evident compared to the also excellent Panasonic VT60 and ZT60. Samsung deserves acknowledgement and praise for their work this year. That said, I believe all three plasmas are truly terrific TVs - there is a much bigger gulf from any of the LCDs to the plasmas than between the plasmas. I truly can't imagine anyone not being happy with the F8500, ZT60, or VT60. How close these TVs are was really brought home to me after the official shootout when plasmas were compared to the Kuro 50" using the Kuro experience disk. Yes, the Kuro could achieve slightly better black, but all four of these TVs were so incredibly close on this black level torture test material in a dark environment that without the others next to it, I don't think you could be disappointed in the black level. It was also clear to me that the F8500, VT60 and ZT60 are clearly better than the Kuro in a moderately lit room - the filters on the newer TVs have advanced in the last 5 years. This moderately to brightly lit room difference is larger than the difference between these TVs in a black cave in my opinion.

As for the LCDs, in almost everything, the plasmas were better. Even for those that like lots of light output, the F8500 now does that, so I don't see much reason to buy one of these LCDs unless you just don't like plasma. The differences between the 3 LCDs and 3 plasmas could not have been more evident than it was on the scene from The Dark Knight Rises - very dark scene with lots of blacks in a dark room. Batman and Cat woman's costumes were shiny, black and full of detail on the plasmas. Even straight on with the LCDs, they couldn't match the depth of the plasmas. I feel this is due not just to very black blacks, but sufficient shadow detail - all three plasmas were in another category compared to the LCDs.

I was unpleasantly surprised at the quality of the Sony. I was looking forward to seeing the 4K display that goes for $7000 in 65" size, especially since Sony has designed some very good LCDs in recent years. What a disappointment. This TV simply could not produce a good black level - much worse than other recent Sony TVs. You think for $7000 they could build a full array local dimming TV even with 4K resolution, but I guess not. Motion was not good on this TV either, and even though you expect poor off-access viewing from an LCD panel, especially a non-IPS panel, this TV had the worst off-angle performance of any medium to high end TV I have seen in several years. Literally moving a foot or two to the side would significantly degrade the picture. On the bright side, at the end we put on some 4K material from the special Sony server and on some of the bright images, particularly still images, the resolution was amazing looking. Very impressive clarity and detail. Problem was you could only notice a significant difference from 1080p if you were about 5 feet from the display. By the time you were 8 feet back, you lost this benefit on the 65" display - on an 84" you would be able to be further back and still see the advantage. The other problem was that on dark scenes such as from The Amazing Spider Man, the poor black level hurt the picture more than the extra resolution helped it. My takeaway from this TV is that the regular indicators of making a great TV - black level, contrast ratio, color accuracy, motion resolution, processing, etc. are more important to get right than having 4K (no reason you can't have both but we don't have that yet - maybe Oled will do that). Other takeaway is that other than the resolution, this is a very ordinary panel - not high end by LCD standards at all. If you want a Sony, find an HX950.

The Panasonic WT60 was not good by high end TV standards, particularly in black level, but the off-angle performance of the IPS panel should not be dismissed. If you are getting an LCD, and you sit dead center, get a Samsung or other VA panel for the better blacks. If you have several people watching it, you really need to consider an IPS panel as any advantage of the VA panels disappears quickly at even small off-angle viewing and the IPS starts to look much better.

Sorry for the long post - I get paid by the word usually. Just kidding. Sort of.
Good, informative post. Thank you.
 
#124 ·
NY Pete, two questions:

1 Was the 3D performance assessed during the Shootout? If it was, which of the TVs had the best 3D performance.
2 For you, which was your favourite TV?

For me Plasmas always had better PQ than the LCDs, but I could never understand why they don't make bigger sizes? I think that if costumer is ready to pay for a product, it should be provided. It is obvious that the Companies are loosing money on LCDs, why don't they consider bigger size plasmas?
 
#126 ·
1. The night I was there 3D performance was not examined. It isn't part of the judging/official part of the shootout, but was mentioned a few times as a possibility to look at after the formal shootout. But I think people wanted to see 4K native content on the Sony more than 3D, and after that it got late and 3D never happened. The expert calibrators in response to a question of which plasma would be best for 3D, very clearly preferred the Samsung F8500 because of its light output ability and Panasonics apparently don't show 1080 lines of resolution in 3D all the time.

2. My favorite TV was the Samsung F8500. If I watched ALL the time in a black room, I might prefer the ZT60/VT60, but the differences there are very small compared to a large difference in daylight which at least some of my viewing is in, so for me the F8500 fits best. As for the VT60 versus ZT60 - they are extremely close and if I was going to buy one I would have to look into it further to make a determination if I can tell any difference watching them. I mean they are nearly identical.
 
#125 ·
#127 ·
Thank you NYPete!
It is interesting the difference between the Expert pannel and the popularity vote on Samsung F8500. The results for VT60/ZT60 are similar but results for Samsung were way off. I was just wondering if the expert did not put some sort of perssonal preference?
 
#128 ·
Kamenoff,

That is a good observation. You are right that the audience and expert scores are nearly identical on the VT60/ZT60 and more divergent on the F8500. The experts also liked the LCDs much more than the audience in Day Mode watching in moderate light. Both groups had similar relative scores among the plasmas (Samsung significantly higher than the Panasonics), but the audience preferred the three plasmas over the LCDs by a lot even in daylight while the experts actually preferred all three LCDs over the Panasonics and the Sony and Samsung LCDs were tied with the Samsung plasma for best in day mode.

As for personal preference, I think the experts as well as most of the audience are trying to be fair and neutral, however I suppose it's possible unconscious bias plays in - impossible to tell. That's why we have the measured objective numbers from the calibration reports to see how the TVs measured, and then the subjective opinions of the audience and experts. Nothing alone tells the whole story.

I think the fact that the experts liked the LCDs in day mode much more than the audience counters statements by some people that the calibrators only love plasma and are unfairly biased away from LCDs. I think they vote and give their opinions based on what they see, not an allegiance to one particular technology.
 
#129 ·
Our 2013 Flat Panel Shootout videos are just beginning to go up on our Youtube page.

Enjoy!

-Robert
 
#131 ·
Unfortunately, the videos had to come down to fix an audio issue.

Sorry, but we'll be back up this evening and hopefully with a few more segments.

-Robert
 
#133 ·
#134 ·
Wish I could have been their Robert! Just can't wait until your all OLED HD Shootout someday we all know it's coming to that, now that will be very interesting indeed. :)
 
#135 ·
Hi Robert,
At the shootout this year the calibrators said that the ZT60 struggled to output more than 30 ft lamberts. On
Hdguru they are reporting being able to reach 47 ftl using the High Panel setting in the Advanced Menu (30 ftl is the max at the Low Setting). If this is correct, then it sounds like the ZT60 may be able to match the F8500 in terms of light output. Would one of the calibrators be able to clarify this point?

Thanks!
 
#136 ·
Hi mjw, Actually I believe HD Guru used the THX Bright mode along with some other settings to drive the panel brighter. We did not use the THX Bright mode in our evaluation as we compare the displays in the best modes. The ZT60/VT60 THX Bright mode gamma is too low, hence much of the detail is lost and most of the settings are locked out or reduced to just high/low vs. the ten point settings and color management controls we have in the custom and professional ISF modes.

Our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation event sets-up all of the displays to produce the best possible picture accuracy.

We'd like to see Panasonic upgrade the ZT60 and VT60 panel brightness in the best picture quality modes. Our Shootout helps the manufacturers identify and understand what's needed to be the best display.

-Robert
 
#138 ·
Hi David, not sure which firmware version you tested for floating blacks, but the last update all but eliminated the tinniest bit of floating black level. In fact, you cannot see any floating blacks unless you have the 2.35:1 or 4:3 cropping bars on the display. The 4:3 side bars exhibit the most black level variation.

I always suggest setting the cropping bars to gray to eliminate the threat of burning in the edge of the bars so it's truly a non issue for most folks.

FYI, one way to totally eliminate the very minimal cropping bars floating blacks is to set the "Black Optimizer" to off.

-Robert
 
#141 ·
#142 ·
Great pictures Robert. Samsung definitely cares about the bragging rights with the big Value Electronics and King of HDTV on the bank of monitors as you walk into their US headquarters. That's great to see.

Selling millions of TVs (among other things) is what these companies are in business for, but it's a wonderful thing when companies take pride in their products and produce really great products that advance the science and art even if they don't sell as well to the mass market. And its great that in the videophile world you have created an award that recognizes that and rewards companies for their efforts. The Value Electronics King of HDTV has become a prestigious award and it would be great to see them incorporate it into their advertising, etc. It's a win for everyone.
 
#145 ·
Three of the nicest posts I have read in years :) Thanks gents!

-Robert
 
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