EP2500 vs Crown DSi1000

**atledreier** · **11-16-09, 01:05 PM**

Going to get a Klipsch THX Ultra2 5.0 system (got my LLT subs), but need to power it.

I currenty have a Denon 4308 receiver, but even though the receiver is rated at 140W and the Klipsch system is pretty sensitive, I think I need more power,

The EP2500 is dirt cheap and unbreakable, but can it perform in a LCR setting?
I've been recommended the DSi1000 for the job. It's about twice the price here, and I need at least two of them, which makes it just out of my financial range at the moment.

How much better is the Crown?

**Jon Liu** · **11-16-09, 02:16 PM**

Maverick, Klipsch being sensitive works in the opposite direction. Since they are incredibly sensitive, meaning their output is higher per watt, they will need less power to be driven to louder volumes. I think your 4308CI will be sufficient enough.

I suggest you try your speakers with the Denon before you go out and spend money on an amplifier. You may still feel you want more power, but then again you may not.

**atledreier** · **11-16-09, 02:23 PM**

I am aware ho sensitivity works, but 'everyone' keep going on about ho much better they sound sith proper amplification. I think that may be placebo too, though.

I will try it with the Denon anyway, and see. Maybe borrow my EP2500 from my subs and see if there is a significant difference before I shell out the needed money.

**JCD** · **11-16-09, 03:05 PM**

Quote:

atledreier wrote:

I am aware ho sensitivity works, but 'everyone' keep going on about ho much better they sound sith proper amplification. I think that may be placebo too, though.

I will try it with the Denon anyway, and see. Maybe borrow my EP2500 from my subs and see if there is a significant difference before I shell out the needed money.

140watts with a Klipsch speaker is PLENTY of power -- even with a huge room, you can get to ear bleeding levels with the 140watts. Also, some people get confused with how watts work. If we assume that their stated wattage is correct, you're only getting an extra ~2.5dB's with the amp EP2500 -- which isn't all that much in my book.

A stand alone amp will usually play cleaner, but not always. If you're going to invest in an amp with a system you're looking at, I'd be looking at an Amp and a new preamp -- and probably jumping up a little on the amp "quality". However, I think you'll find FAR more improvement by properly treating your room acoustically than investing in new electronics. It's far less sexy, but far more effective IMO.

**atledreier** · **11-16-09, 04:21 PM**

Yeah. My room is already pretty well treated, and there is more on the way. I will definetly try with the Denon first and see how it feels.

**WmAx** · **11-18-09, 12:45 PM**

Quote:

JCD wrote:

140watts with a Klipsch speaker is PLENTY of power -- even with a huge room, you can get to ear bleeding levels with the 140watts. Also, some people get confused with how watts work. If we assume that their stated wattage is correct, you're only getting an extra ~2.5dB's with the amp EP2500 -- which isn't all that much in my book.

A stand alone amp will usually play cleaner, but not always. If you're going to invest in an amp with a system you're looking at, I'd be looking at an Amp and a new preamp -- and probably jumping up a little on the amp "quality". However, I think you'll find FAR more improvement by properly treating your room acoustically than investing in new electronics. It's far less sexy, but far more effective IMO.

Actually, 140 watts from the Denon vs. 450 watts from the EP2500(I assume the speakers are nominally 8 Ohms - so I am using the 8 Ohm power output of the amps for this example) will result in a 5dB gain in output. 6dB is true doubling of amplitude, so 5dB is going to be nearly doubled output. In addition, the Ep2500 can handle just about any speaker load, so it's upgrade proof.

-Chris

**atledreier** · **11-18-09, 12:52 PM**

My thoughts exactly, Chris.

I will try the Denon first and see. I'll upgrade one bit at a time, cause my screen turned out to be ALOT more than I had anticipated.

**JCD** · **11-18-09, 01:23 PM**

My bad -- I was thinking the Behringer was 250watts into 8ohms.

However, I think you need to get to 10db's to get a a doubling of perceived sound (link).

However, even if we assume twice as loud, I'd still think the Behringer is going to be over kill for most hometheater installs.

The ability to handle multiple speaker loads is a bonus though, but mos stand alone amps are going to be able to go down to at least 4ohms, which, unless you're building speakers yourself, is going to cover the vast majority of speakers.

Re-reading the post form the beginning, it sounds like I'm denigrating the Behringer amp, which isn't my intent. I think it's a fine choice for a good intro to separates. My intent was more to not get too excited about the watts of an amp. In the OP's case, I don't think a 450watt/channel amp is necessary.

If he's intent on getting into separates, I'd probably steer him to the A500 as I've heard it's "cleaner" than the Ep2500. However, I'd try the Denon first of course. And if I REALLY needed to jump into separates, I'd consider maybe getting an Outlaw Audio preamp & amp combo. If you're going to drop that kind of green on the speakers (which I think is where we should most of our cash), a couple of grand for a preamp and amp seems reasonable too.

**atledreier** · **11-18-09, 01:26 PM**

This is a downgrade for me, really. Or at least a lateral move. I'm moving from Dali Euphonia MS4 and CS4, a $17.000 piece of kit. I ran those off my Denon, and it was fine, even at reference. So I'm guessing the Klipsch, being much more sensitive, will do equally well.

**WmAx** · **11-18-09, 08:59 PM**

Quote:

JCD wrote:

My bad -- I was thinking the Behringer was 250watts into 8ohms.

However, I think you need to get to 10db's to get a a doubling of perceived sound (link).

Actually, I am not sure that 10db value is correct. I have not been able to find the source study to read - to find out the conditions/variables used and signals used in this test that established this. In my informal testing, 6-8db is roughly 2x as loud to me, and the same results with other audio enthusiast friends, using music as the signal and adjusting in 2db increments until a perceived 'doubling' is detected. These informal tests seem to result in 6-8db being perceived as 'doubling' of SPL. But this is just the results of some loosely controlled tests.

I have no idea what you mean by the A500 being 'cleaner'. The EP2500 should be a perfectly transparent amplifier. The A500, on the other hand, is known to have defective units with a distortion that appears on some units - especially apparent with sharp note strikes in piano solos (you will hear a static sound after the note). I have had two of these defective A500 units myself. But my Ep2500 has no such issue. In addition, the EP2500 has better build quality (actually has better build quality than many 'audiophile' amps). You can find it as cheap as $260 if you shop carefully.

In my main system I use Yamaha professional amplifiers. They do not have the fan noise issue to deal with that many other pro amps have.

-Chris

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