Headphones - Whats your Pick?

**WmAx** · **01-12-09, 07:14 PM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

Hmmm............. I doubt its a placebo effect for me. I`m not losing my mind yet. And, I know what I heard. And, many others reviewers have as well.

It has nothing to do with 'losing your mind'. Every human is subject to the same effects. It is a psychological function of EVERY human's brain. No one is immune: not you, me or your neigbors.

Psychological effects such as these are thoroughly documented in the psychological texts. Avaserfi more so specializes in the specifics of this psychological field - he can explain in depth and provide you with specific references.

And what is to say it was imagined? There may be a response difference built into the balanced comparison that you heard. And if the comparison you did was not precisely level matched to within 0.1dB between both amplifiers, it is automatically an invalid comparison. If it still sounds different under a proper blinded evaluation, you can bet there is a measurable difference that is correlated with the auditory perception texts.

Quote:

However, this Behringer eq intrigues me. How much are we talking here, dollars and cents?

The DCX2496 is about $275-$300. You can find factory refurbished units sometimes for $200. Last place that had them refurbed was www.musiciansfriend.com. The unit uses XLR balanced inputs and outputs. You can feed it's input with regular consumer unbalanced line; just get an RCA to XLR adapter. If you encounter hum or noise from a ground loop, I recommend using an ART DTI converter. It has RCA inputs and XLR outputs; it uses a transformer to isolate the ground and convert the unbalanced signal to balanced.

For the output, if your amp does not have balanced inputs, you may need to use a 6-12dB in line passive attenuator. The DCX outputs a substantially higher output voltage than unbalanced devices, causing the noise floor to also be greatly amplified. Feeding this to consumer inputs which expect a very small voltage level can often cause audible hiss to occur. Harrison Labs makes a nice little RCA inline attenuator that you can get at www.partsexpress.com . 12dB attenuation is probably the best suited to most consumer RCA inputs. The DCX is very powerful and can do all sort of things -- but no matter what the use - I recommend using the GUI software and controlling it from a PC. It makes things easier and provides you with the ability to manipulate the curve with your mouse on a FR graph. Very nifty. This EQ is nothing like a 'graphic EQ'. It is a precision device and can do very subtle or very extensive modification. You may also use it to do unique things like integrate your headphones with a subwoofer. Some people do this - because it puts the tactile feeling you get with speakers into the headphone listening experience. I do recommend a very high quality subwoofer to integrate with headphones, however. The DCX can also manipulate the subjective 'tightness' of the bass from the subwoofer if you know the correct functions to use.

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Now, another matter. At the HE2007 show here in New York at the Grand Hyatt Hotel at Grand Central, I got to hear some Stax headphones. Always wanted to for years, but it seemed very hard to find dealers who carried them.
Anyway, they had a pair, roughly $1995.00, I do not remember the model no. Plugged directly into a universal cd player. What a disappointment. Now I know, there was no headphone amp, which does matter to a degree.

The Omega II's price at any regular dealer is far higher than $2k. But I believe you can get it from discount importer houses for about $2k. You can't use the Omega II without a special amplifier - it is not possible. So I sound more like you heard an electret headphone(it's an electrostatic with perament charged plates - not using bias voltage powered plates) if it did not require an amplifier. The Omega II is the only Stax I have found to be satisfactory. Others are a sore disappointment to me. This is the Omega II: http://www.stereophile.com/headphones/895/

Quote:

But, for everything that I read, heard about Stax phones, I was highly disappointed.
Also, on hand was a pair of Beyer Dynamics DT880`s. Roughly $400.00. They sounded better. Sure, not the best conditions, but............... and you mention build quality between the Stax and Sennheiser. But what about comfort?.

The Orpheus is very comfortable. The Omega II is so-so but not bad to me. The DT880 is also pretty good at comfort. I never listen to stock DT880 and the current model appears to have even more elevated treble than the old version that I have from 2003. But that could be simple unit to unit variation of manufacturing tolerances that I experienced.

-Chris

**ikant** · **01-13-09, 01:11 PM**

Quote:

avaserfi wrote:

The 7506 headphones are designed for use as professional monitors.

Exactly. I have even used the Sony MDR7506 for everything from DJing/Remixing to Gaming and Movie viewing (not to disturb the Mrs

). And nooooo disappointments, and have worm 'em for over 7 hours during a long Gaming session with my sons....needless to say, but will, VERY comfortable.

**deacongreg** · **01-13-09, 02:01 PM**

Well, I thank you for answering my questions and concerns. I have to decide if 200-300.00 iis a worthy investment for the Behringer.

**deacongreg** · **01-15-09, 01:22 PM**

Chris, no doubt you seem to know something about Headphone listening, however from my experience, I still feel uncomfortable about this placebo effect.
Check this out, and get back to me.
http://www.headphone.com/products/pr...ed-headphones/

**deacongreg** · **01-15-09, 02:24 PM**

My pick, well ths pick is because of the one great experience I had with these headphones. While working for Harvey Sound on 45th right off 5th avenue in Manhattan, a real nice gentleman came in. i was brand new, maybe 2 days. One of the senior salesman ushered me into the sound room, where we had our Audio Research amplifiers and KEF speakers.
All he had was his headphones, and a portable Sony cd player going directly in it. No Headroom amps, Benchmark, Grace, nothing!! When he placed these cans on my head, I could not believe the amount of detail I heard. The Sound was excellent, thunderous bass, midrange for vocals was very good, I mean, unbelievable.
Now, what you also need to know is, at this time, though I had a pair of Koss Pro 4AA, I believe thats right, (Quadrophonic headphones) with a 2 channel/4 channel switch and volume controls on the earcups, I really knew nothing about the whole headphone game at that the time. This was my first experience of high end headphones.
They were the Grado Rs1`s. Superb!! I never forgot that demo. Now, if i could demo the Grado RS1`s, AKG701`s in white, and the Sennheiser HD650`s for myself, and make up my own mind, that would be fantastic.
http://www.hometheaterreview.com/equ...ones002289.php

**WmAx** · **01-15-09, 04:59 PM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

Chris, no doubt you seem to know something about Headphone listening, however from my experience, I still feel uncomfortable about this placebo effect.
Check this out, and get back to me.
http://www.headphone.com/products/pr...ed-headphones/

Everyone feels uncomfortable when they realize that their perceptions are subject to far more than actual physical changes.

Tyll is a great guy; I have met him a couple of times - but his website is just promoting his products. He offers zero credible information related to perceptual research as to why a balanced line driver makes a difference in any audible way whatsoever. I know quite a bit about the related perceptual research - and I don't know of a single thing that would give a balanced line driver any audible improvement. If you can find any credible references, I would be glad to read them. At this time, I can not see it for anything other than an audiophile issue. I have listened to, in depth, using careful references - to most of the high end phones on and off the market now - and the only thing that has ever made a headphone sound great was a good quality recording and a great headphone to begin with. Fancy cables, amps, etc.; need not apply for real differences. Crossfeed is a useful feature for some people: so this should be considered.

-Chris

**JCD** · **01-15-09, 09:20 PM**

Ok, I kind of feel like i might be throwing gas in to a fire, but I've heard from an amp engineer that balanced inputs aren't mecessary unless you have exceptionally long runs. In fact, he said he prefers unbalanced to balanced for regular runs.

Can't verify this with anything other than pure hearsay, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Back to our favorite headphones.. still digging my 701's. I had a chance to compare them directly with a pair of Senn 650's. I can totally understand the appeal of the 650's for folks, but preferred my 701's for their "accuracy". Scientific and free of bias? Nope, but what can you do?

JCD

**deacongreg** · **01-16-09, 02:06 PM**

Quote:

WmAx wrote:

Everyone feels uncomfortable when they realize that their perceptions are subject to far more than actual physical changes.

Tyll is a great guy; I have met him a couple of times - but his website is just promoting his products. He offers zero credible information related to perceptual research as to why a balanced line driver makes a difference in any audible way whatsoever. I know quite a bit about the related perceptual research - and I don't know of a single thing that would give a balanced line driver any audible improvement. If you can find any credible references, I would be glad to read them. At this time, I can not see it for anything other than an audiophile issue. I have listened to, in depth, using careful references - to most of the high end phones on and off the market now - and the only thing that has ever made a headphone sound great was a good quality recording and a great headphone to begin with. Fancy cables, amps, etc.; need not apply for real differences. Crossfeed is a useful feature for some people: so this should be considered.

-Chris

Well, i guess we will agree, to disagree.

**WmAx** · **01-17-09, 06:55 AM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

Well, i guess we will agree, to disagree.

Okay. But what do you disagree with, exactly? I'm not really clear on that?

-Chris

**deacongreg** · **01-17-09, 05:39 PM**

Quote:

WmAx wrote:

Okay. But what do you disagree with, exactly? I'm not really clear on that?

-Chris

Listen, I respect your opinion, and your knowledge in this area. However, what you want me to believe is, that all the reviewers from Stereophile, and the Absolute Sound, (magazines I read) are all wrong. From my own knowledge, their are musiciams that use headphone amps and headphones everyday. But, you want me to believe, that all of them also have a placebo effect.

I think its time to leave this subject anyone. BTW, a response from Headroom.
https://webmail.optimum.net/en/mail....aurel=on&cal=0

**deacongreg** · **01-17-09, 06:16 PM**

Well, gentlemen. Sennheiser has a new reference headphone, the HD800.

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser...oot/spec_hd800

**WmAx** · **01-17-09, 11:58 PM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

Listen, I respect your opinion, and your knowledge in this area. However, what you want me to believe is, that all the reviewers from Stereophile, and the Absolute Sound, (magazines I read) are all wrong. From my own knowledge, their are musiciams that use headphone amps and headphones everyday. But, you want me to believe, that all of them also have a placebo effect.

I think its time to leave this subject anyone. BTW, a response from Headroom.
https://webmail.optimum.net/en/mail....aurel=on&cal=0

It is reality that no one is immune to placebo. Why is it that when knowledge of cables and/or devices under test often eliminates the 'obvious' differences that often are claimed to exist by said audiophiles?

BTW, if you want the Headroom response to be readable, you will have to copy and paste the text body to the forum.

-Chris

**deacongreg** · **01-19-09, 09:53 AM**

Quote:

WmAx wrote:

It is reality that no one is immune to placebo. Why is it that when knowledge of cables and/or devices under test often eliminates the 'obvious' differences that often are claimed to exist by said audiophiles?

BTW, if you want the Headroom response to be readable, you will have to copy and paste the text body to the forum.

-Chris

I do not understand your response, and you really did not address my comment, but thats ok. Here is the headroom response. Hello Greg,

I must say Tyll found it amusing -- and does not know this guy from Adam. Our highly-educated, occassionally overly-serious HeadRoom Audio Engineering Dept also shared a hearty laugh... so thanks for that!

I guess the proof is in the actual listening for most folks. We attend audio events all the time (last one was at the huge Denver Audio Festival in early October '08) where we set up identical HeadRoom rigs using the same exact audio source and same headphones, one balanced & one unbalanced, and let all listeners decide for themselves. After in-depth listening sessions [many using their own favorite CDs], 90%-95% of evaluators take the balanced/XLR route without debate, including serious audiophiles, music producers, and well-experienced poindexter types.

As you know, recording studios and professional session/working musicians typically employ 'balanced-drive'/XLR systems throughout most of their gear rigs (mics, interconnects, mixing boards, etc

... We're proud to say our HeadRoom balanced-drive headphone units are now operating in well over 150 recording studios, soundtrack/film labs, digital-design software developers, and university audio/video media centers worldwide (...the list of rock stars & famous jazz players using our stuff is vast!) Obviously, that caliber of customer can discern accurate sound and are not the sort to be swayed only by Tyll's massive amounts of charisma!

--
Please feel free to reply if any further questions!

Cheers,
www.headphone.com

Jorge Cervera
Sales/Product Manager
HeadRoom Corporation
2020 Gilkerson Drive
Bozeman Montana USA
59715
1-800-828-8184 USA Toll-Free
1-406-587-9466 International
jorge@headphone.com

**mulveling** · **01-19-09, 11:37 PM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

I guess the proof is in the actual listening for most folks. We attend audio events all the time (last one was at the huge Denver Audio Festival in early October '08) where we set up identical HeadRoom rigs using the same exact audio source and same headphones, one balanced & one unbalanced, and let all listeners decide for themselves. After in-depth listening sessions [many using their own favorite CDs], 90%-95% of evaluators take the balanced/XLR route without debate, including serious audiophiles, music producers, and well-experienced poindexter types.

Ok, here's a question: was care taken to level-match the headphones in this comparison, and if so by what means? All else equal, the dual-differential drive will naturally be 6db louder than unbalanced, since it's driving with twice the voltage. All else equal, 6db is plenty to make the perceived difference of dull to dynamic. Without well matched levels (less than 1db), it's never a fair comparison.

**deacongreg** · **01-20-09, 11:27 AM**

Quote:

mulveling wrote:

Ok, here's a question: was care taken to level-match the headphones in this comparison, and if so by what means? All else equal, the dual-differential drive will naturally be 6db louder than unbalanced, since it's driving with twice the voltage. All else equal, 6db is plenty to make the perceived difference of dull to dynamic. Without well matched levels (less than 1db), it's never a fair comparison.

Hey Mike, whats up? I`m sure they did. I did not ask them, but I have no reason to believe that they would not be thorough, and do things the right way. These guys at Headroom know their stuff. And as Jorge said, there are many musicians, recording and studio engineers, and artists that use this equipment. And I`m to believe that this is one big scam.

Anything of course is possible..............but................. That is why I said, we will disagree on this one, before everyone here on the forum starts thinking this way too.

**mulveling** · **01-20-09, 05:29 PM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

Hey Mike, whats up? I`m sure they did. I did not ask them, but I have no reason to believe that they would not be thorough, and do things the right way. These guys at Headroom know their stuff. And as Jorge said, there are many musicians, recording and studio engineers, and artists that use this equipment. And I`m to believe that this is one big scam.

Anything of course is possible..............but................. That is why I said, we will disagree on this one, before everyone here on the forum starts thinking this way too.

Hey Greg,
I get that the balanced 4ch version of a particular amp has irrefutable technical advantages over regular 2ch - common mode noise rejection and double the slew rate. What I'm skeptical of (though not 100%), for most hifi headphone systems, are the claims that balanced drive alone makes a significant audible difference - once care has been taken to match levels. I'm skeptical because I've heard truly top-notch sound from both unbalanced and balanced headphone systems - and I wouldn't say that the balanced systems stand out over the best unbalanced systems. Once a certain level of amp quality (in design & implementation) has been reached, the choice of headphone has been the overwhelming determinant of system sound, followed by source quality.

All that said, I do know that Headroom makes some quality products without the B. S. like a lot of other audio companies. Also, the new HD800 has ignited an intense desire within me (big fan of the HD650 here)...I'm trying not to, but I may have to break down and preorder from the Headroom guys...

**deacongreg** · **01-20-09, 05:39 PM**

Quote:

mulveling wrote:

Hey Greg,
I get that the balanced 4ch version of a particular amp has irrefutable technical advantages over regular 2ch - common mode noise rejection and double the slew rate. What I'm skeptical of (though not 100%), for most hifi headphone systems, are the claims that balanced drive alone makes a significant audible difference - once care has been taken to match levels. I'm skeptical because I've heard truly top-notch sound from both unbalanced and balanced headphone systems - and I wouldn't say that the balanced systems stand out over the best unbalanced systems. Once a certain level of amp quality (in design & implementation) has been reached, the choice of headphone has been the overwhelming determinant of system sound, followed by source quality.

All that said, I do know that Headroom makes some quality products without the B. S. like a lot of other audio companies. Also, the new HD800 has ignited an intense desire within me (big fan of the HD650 here)...I'm trying not to, but I may have to break down and preorder from the Headroom guys...

I was on Sennheiser`s site yesterday. I wonder what the price will be for the new HD800`s? I hear you on the unbalanced or balanced piece. Maybe I `ll send your reply over to headroom, and see what they say.

**mulveling** · **01-20-09, 05:45 PM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

I was on Sennheiser`s site yesterday. I wonder what the price will be for the new HD800`s? I hear you on the unbalanced or balanced piece. Maybe I `ll send your reply over to headroom, and see what they say.

I hear pre-orders are being taken at the MSRP of $1400. Ouch, but they should be killer and are expected to compete with much more expensive headphones (the few and legendary that they are). The design looks a lot to me like the discontinued (and extremely rare) Sony Qualia 010, ring radiator driver and all. The HD650 can already compete with the best, so who knows what this HD800 can do.

**deacongreg** · **01-21-09, 01:06 AM**

Quote:

mulveling wrote:

I hear pre-orders are being taken at the MSRP of $1400. Ouch, but they should be killer and are expected to compete with much more expensive headphones (the few and legendary that they are). The design looks a lot to me like the discontinued (and extremely rare) Sony Qualia 010, ring radiator driver and all. The HD650 can already compete with the best, so who knows what this HD800 can do.

That is high. We are now talking Stax Headphones price range. For that money, they`re going to have t be really impressive.

**deacongreg** · **01-21-09, 01:11 AM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

I was on Sennheiser`s site yesterday. I wonder what the price will be for the new HD800`s? I hear you on the unbalanced or balanced piece. Maybe I `ll send your reply over to headroom, and see what they say.

Like I said, my guys at Headroom do not play! Here is their response to you:Howdy Greg,

Balanced-drive headphone systems alleviate restrictive high-impedance loads and are naturally louder versus identical single-ended rigs -- which can indeed make the SQ seem "better" for most listeners when the volume output levels are not properly matched.

Hence, in order to correctly evaluate unbalanced vs. balanced headphone systems, they must have their volume outputs matched, an easy process using headphone-dedicated spl gauges. HeadRoom audio engineers use our own uber-accurate SPL gauges which are calibrated regularly at the Montana State University EE Dept.

**lcaillo** · **01-21-09, 06:38 AM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

Listen, I respect your opinion, and your knowledge in this area. However, what you want me to believe is, that all the reviewers from Stereophile, and the Absolute Sound, (magazines I read) are all wrong. From my own knowledge, their are musiciams that use headphone amps and headphones everyday. But, you want me to believe, that all of them also have a placebo effect.

I think its time to leave this subject anyone. BTW, a response from Headroom.
https://webmail.optimum.net/en/mail....aurel=on&cal=0

While Chris is more willing than I to consider that there may be factors that we do not understand that contribute to what some feel that they hear, I cannot find fault with him asking for actual evidence, or even credible suggestions regarding why there might be a difference. The fact is, Greg, that we are all affected by placebo effects as well as prior expectation. When a whole industry is built upon the notion that tweaking the technology can result in audible differences, it is not unreasonable to expect that people will be predisposed to hear differences, particularly in subjective evaluations without appropriate controls.

There are reasons for a balanced system, but I am not sure that a great case can be made for using it with headphones. Regardless, it would be easy enough to measure differences and it makes one wonder why, if you are trying to make a case for a particular technology, you would not document it with appropriate testing and data. I think this is Chris' beef with lots of claims, and I have to agree. There certainly may be factors that we don't fully understand that affect the ability to percieve differences that we have not explained, but when products are marketed with claims that do not appear to be supported by any serious attept to show an effect, one has to be skeptical.

**deacongreg** · **01-22-09, 02:33 AM**

Quote:

lcaillo wrote:

While Chris is more willing than I to consider that there may be factors that we do not understand that contribute to what some feel that they hear, I cannot find fault with him asking for actual evidence, or even credible suggestions regarding why there might be a difference. The fact is, Greg, that we are all affected by placebo effects as well as prior expectation. When a whole industry is built upon the notion that tweaking the technology can result in audible differences, it is not unreasonable to expect that people will be predisposed to hear differences, particularly in subjective evaluations without appropriate controls.

There are reasons for a balanced system, but I am not sure that a great case can be made for using it with headphones. Regardless, it would be easy enough to measure differences and it makes one wonder why, if you are trying to make a case for a particular technology, you would not document it with appropriate testing and data. I think this is Chris' beef with lots of claims, and I have to agree. There certainly may be factors that we don't fully understand that affect the ability to percieve differences that we have not explained, but when products are marketed with claims that do not appear to be supported by any serious attept to show an effect, one has to be skeptical.

I hear you, and understand. However, for some reason it did not come across that way to me. Or, he did not say it clearly like you are saying it.

And lets face it, that can be said about any component or product. As far as proof, this all started with his comment. There was no burden of proof. I reacted to what he said. I think from the response that I posted from the guys at Headroom, their testing is truthful, logical and above board. And as you can see, they had no problem showing what they do. And I never asked them!!
So, if its true that Chris feels they way you do, okay, but I never expected for this to get this deep!!

It just seemed to me that Chris came across to me as this know it all Headphone expert, and that his, and only his findings stand alone. And, while it may be true what you guys are saying, I didn`t think it needed to go there. It sounded like the rest of us are dumb, and have no idea what is going on. Hey, maybe I over reacted. n case you missed this post, for your edification:Howdy Greg,

Balanced-drive headphone systems alleviate restrictive high-impedance loads and are naturally louder versus identical single-ended rigs -- which can indeed make the SQ seem "better" for most listeners when the volume output levels are not properly matched.

Hence, in order to correctly evaluate unbalanced vs. balanced headphone systems, they must have their volume outputs matched, an easy process using headphone-dedicated spl gauges. HeadRoom audio engineers use our own uber-accurate SPL gauges which are calibrated regularly at the Montana State University EE Dept.

What is also interesting is, since I have sent these response from Headroom, I have not heard from Chris. Just as well, cause I`m done with it now. My intention is to have fun on this forum, not battle.

Anyway, if you want headphones, the guys at Headroom are great, period.

**WmAx** · **01-22-09, 05:07 AM**

Icallio is correct in regards to my intentions in my replies. I am sorry if I was not clear to you.

Headroom has not yet, nor ever, provided any credible evidence to explain reason for any audible difference. Nor has anyone else to my knowledge. But 'balanced' circuits are the current fad, it seems.

FYI: The only legitimate use of balanced circuits to my knowledge is for external signal connections between components (such as source to pre-amp or pre-amp to amplifier) in order to provide for rejection of external noise and prevent ground loops. Of course, this is generally not a problem in typical consumer systems. It is primarily a feature needed for professional use where a large number of long lines are used - and a substantial amount of external interference will probably be present. Also, please note that the use of a balanced stage in regards to line level balanced transmission and reception in components is not applicable to using a balanced output of an amplifier interfaced with a transducer(no noise rejection characteristic is present here).

-Chris

**WmAx** · **01-22-09, 05:19 AM**

Quote:

mulveling wrote:

I hear pre-orders are being taken at the MSRP of $1400. Ouch, but they should be killer and are expected to compete with much more expensive headphones (the few and legendary that they are). The design looks a lot to me like the discontinued (and extremely rare) Sony Qualia 010, ring radiator driver and all. The HD650 can already compete with the best, so who knows what this HD800 can do.

Well, I'm sure the Sennheiser will not compete with the build quality of the Qualia, which was very high(Now, the sound of Qualia was HIGHLY colored; I am only making positive comment towards it's build quality). The pics looked like a cheap silver painted plastic frame for the new Sennheiser. , Sennheiser's highest end headphone, the Orpheus, was not even impressive in terms of build quality. The only notable thing was use of wood for the outer frames - but otherwise - it was made using standard plastic construction and even used the cheapest of cheap quality fake leather for the headband cover. There for I do not expect much in terms of build quality from the HD800.

As for sound, I would expect 'different', not 'better'. Maybe 'better' only from the aspect of having a tonal difference that some may prefer. Some people will probably still prefer the HD650 or even the HD600.

-Chris

**WmAx** · **01-22-09, 05:21 AM**

Quote:

deacongreg wrote:

I hear you, and understand. However, for some reason it did not come across that way to me. Or, he did not say it clearly like you are saying it.

Did you ever verify the model Stax that you listened to? I provided that link to the Omega II that included a picture. Was is the Omega II that you heard? Here is another pic: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...obiblu_007.jpg

Just curious.....

-Chris

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