Home Audio Amps VS Pro DJ Amps?

[conchyjoe7]

WmAx wrote:

I would be difficult for me to care what some one thinks they hear with an amp in non controlled conditions. Now, demonstrate audibility in properly controlled, level matched, blinded test conditions with statistically significant results demonstrating an audible difference, and then it might be interesting. If this happens, let's just measure the amplifiers properly and the culprit should appear rather obviously.

-Chris

As I said in my previous reply, and that is confirmed by the reply above. Both camps think they're right and neither will give any leeway. You see, it's difficult for me to care what someone thinks they don't hear (or actually doesn't hear) with an amp in non controlled conditions. Does anyone know anyone that has bought an amp, receiver, or for that matter a TV or DVD player, car, refridgerator, etc. under the conditions outlines above? Also notice that even were all of those conditions met and quote "statistically significant results demonstrating an audible difference" was found, even then quoting above again "then it might be interesting"...it might be interesting...IOW, nothing would convince. That said, in totally uncontrolled conditions that are merely played and not rigged (another favorite accusation) most people still find what they perceive to be an audible (or visual) preference and difference in most things.
I've said this many times before...If you can't hear any difference; good for you: Just think of how much money you have (or can) save(d) by being able to buy a $499.99 HTIB and it sounds as good to you as anything out there. I imagine to some an IC output device also does as good a job and sounds for all intents and purposes identical to a totally discrete output stage; especially at high SPLs... I will admit that it does seem a little strange to me that the people that almost always seem to be attempting to justify and defend their purchases are ones that have bought "pro" gear or other ummm, shall we say less expensive equipment with 10 zillion watts per channel into 0.0000001 THD even though it costs $200.00 and weighs in at 12 lbs, and not the people that have bought "high(er) end" gear and are delighted with it. It does make one wonder that what with no differences, why Abbey Road Studios would see fit to use B&W 802D speakers and power them with Classe Audio amps...hmmm?! As I said in my first response...this argument will never go away. If you're happy with what you have; that's great irregardless of what you have...

Whatever you have; enjoy the music and movies...I believe THAT is the point!

Cheers,
Konky.

[imbeaujp]

To me, the the problem with pro amp is the fan noize !

I am considering a Pro amp to drive my sub but not for the full range mode.

[avaserfi]

conchyjoe7 wrote:

As I said in my previous reply, and that is confirmed by the reply above. Both camps think they're right and neither will give any leeway. You see, it's difficult for me to care what someone thinks they don't hear (or actually doesn't hear) with an amp in non controlled conditions. Does anyone know anyone that has bought an amp, receiver, or for that matter a TV or DVD player, car, refridgerator, etc. under the conditions outlines above? Also notice that even were all of those conditions met and quote "statistically significant results demonstrating an audible difference" was found, even then quoting above again "then it might be interesting"...it might be interesting...IOW, nothing would convince. That said, in totally uncontrolled conditions that are merely played and not rigged (another favorite accusation) most people still find what they perceive to be an audible (or visual) preference and difference in most things.

The human brain is a very interesting thing that works in ways most don't realize. First off humans like to categorize things into various groups this is because of the wiring within our minds. For successful categorization there must be differences between these items. If differences don't exist often times our minds will fabricate them; this is one form of bias which is extremely common in uncontrolled environments.

You are correct in saying it is unlikely that someone would be able to ABx or double blind test every purchase they make, but it is possible to avoid this step with credible measurements and application of various research in the field. If one understands what aspects could make an amplifier audible with a certain pair of speakers at required SPLs then it is completely feasible for someone to purchase an amplifier based on measurements alone that will be completely inaudible with any given speaker.

conchyjoe7 wrote:

I've said this many times before...If you can't hear any difference; good for you: Just think of how much money you have (or can) save(d) by being able to buy a $499.99 HTIB and it sounds as good to you as anything out there. I imagine to some an IC output device also does as good a job and sounds for all intents and purposes identical to a totally discrete output stage; especially at high SPLs... I will admit that it does seem a little strange to me that the people that almost always seem to be attempting to justify and defend their purchases are ones that have bought "pro" gear or other ummm, shall we say less expensive equipment with 10 zillion watts per channel into 0.0000001 THD even though it costs $200.00 and weighs in at 12 lbs, and not the people that have bought "high(er) end" gear and are delighted with it. It does make one wonder that what with no differences, why Abbey Road Studios would see fit to use B&W 802D speakers and power them with Classe Audio amps...hmmm?! As I said in my first response...this argument will never go away. If you're happy with what you have; that's great irregardless of what you have...

Being delighted with a piece of gear has nothing to do with it being quality or not as shown by companies such as Bose.

As far as the Classe amps paired with the B&W802Ds this is likely a packaged purchase. Simply put the B&W802Ds are some of the highest quality monopolar speakers on the market especially as it relates to studio monitoring. This is due to their extreme linearity and lack of all audible coloration. Classe happens to be owned by the same company that is owns B&W. So it is likely a deal in which the parent company 'sponsored' the studio occurred where they got a "one company" system.

For more on the subjective/objective debate as it relates to amplifiers please focus your responses to this thread.

imbeaujp wrote:

To me, the the problem with pro amp is the fan noize !

I am considering a Pro amp to drive my sub but not for the full range mode.

This is normally an extremely easy fix if you don't mind opening up your unit. For some pro amps you can just pop in a replacement fan that has a lower noise floor. For others you can solder a resistor in the line that slows the stock fan down. This weekend barring time I will be replacing the fan in my EP2500 and plan on taking pictures for a mini tutorial.

[tonyvdb]

imbeaujp wrote:

To me, the the problem with pro amp is the fan noize !

There are pro amps that are convection cooled you just have to look a bit harder for them Samson has some great convection cooled amps (there servo line for example)

[Sonnie]

Check out the Quieter fan mod for Behringer EP2500.

[thxgoon]

jackfish wrote:

Actually, there is a point in your clarifying this. I'd like to have a dollar for every commercial movie theater implementation of the Yamaha P4500, a relatively inexpensive pro audio amp. There are thousands out there. And there isn't a whole lot of "difference" between it and the Tapco Juice amps. Please enlighten us as to the difference between "Pro grade" amps and "DJ amps." Thank You.

The difference is that some of the more 'pro' amps usually won't inflate their power ratings as much, have better circuit topology and cooling abilities to allow them to run hot for a long time without dying and they're built to withstand a fall out of the back of a truck. But for the most part any decent amp (dj amps included) running within their design constraints are going to sound the same with a normal load.

[jackfish]

tonyvdb wrote:

There are pro amps that are convection cooled you just have to look a bit harder for them Samson has some great convection cooled amps (there servo line for example)

Samson Servo amplifiers that would meet the original poster's power requirements are cooled with continuously variable speed forced air fans. Only the Samson Servo 120A is convection cooled, probably because it is very low-powered (2 x 50 watts @ 1 kHz into 8 ohms).

[thxgoon]

Ya and in the way this listener would be using the amp he would have no problem.

[jackfish]

Ya as he probably wouldn't using the Tapco Juice J-800 either.

Sorry!

[jackfish]

BleedingStar wrote:

Yeah i bookmarked that one too actually, = )

310 per channel is probably a little more than i need though.

BleedingStar, I wouldn't let the power requirement specification of your loudspeakers limit you to 200 watts per channel. There may be a significant difference in how those electrostatics perform with more power available to drive material peaks.

I have stacked double New Large Advent loudspeakers that are each rated for, I suppose, about 65 watts RMS. However, I can tell the difference having each speaker driven by an amplifier with 200 watts per channel. Transient peaks seem to sound better with the so-called dynamic headroom available to handle them.

Stacked double Large Advents driven with a Phase Linear 700 amplifier have been compared to the finest electrostatic loudspeakers available back in their day (The Absolute Sound).

[Sonnie]

Be nice guys...

[WmAx]

conchyjoe7 wrote:

That said, in totally uncontrolled conditions that are merely played and not rigged (another favorite accusation) most people still find what they perceive to be an audible (or visual) preference and difference in most things.

Of course. And in things such as amplifiers operating within their limitations, usually this difference disappears when controls are used to remove psychological bias. The exceptions having been when the test procedure was faulty(sloppy) or the amplifier has measured response issue(s) that correlate with known audible threshold difference(s).

I've said this many times before...If you can't hear any difference; good for you: Just think of how much money you have (or can) save(d) by being able to buy a $499.99 HTIB and it sounds as good to you as anything out there.

That is not a fair statement. It is as if you want to lump together all things(amplifier, speakers, etc.). But this is not the case. The speakers in such units are invariably(from every one I have ever seen) worthless for hi-fi purposes. It is also probable that the amplifier used in most HTIB units is not useful for anything except the most benign loads, and very sensitive ones at that.

It does make one wonder that what with no differences, why Abbey Road Studios would see fit to use B&W 802D speakers and power them with Classe Audio amps...hmmm?!

The 802D is one of the finest quality studio monitors at any price. It has a linear frequency response, drivers with low resonance and a cabinet system with virtually no resonance. The cabinet design used also is free of virtually all cabinet diffraction(reflection) problems due to it's shape. It is only natural for it to be paired with high-end amplifiers, even though the amplifiers are not doing anything that a QSC RMX could not do.

-Chris

[BleedingStar]

Yes, at one point down the line I will have to be upgrading to a separate amp to run these, and I will keep in mind the power thoughts. If only I could rent out a couple different amps and try em out.. = ) However for now, I have tweaked my current amp, and I am started to get quite satisfying results.

[pietsch288]

I am also looking to purchase enough amps to configure a 5 channel setup. So my question is which DJ/pro audio amplifier is/are considered warm. I have no experience in this market so I will need names and model #'s of like.... the best 5 that are warm ( I would like to stay under 900.00 for all 5 channels) (I realize I will probably end up with an extra channel along the line....I assume I would be buying 3ea 2 channel amps). The reason I dwell on warm is I have klipsch rf-7's and they get too loud/harsh during action sceens. I was using an emotiva lpa-1 (125w X 5)....and it was pretty bright so I sold it, and am now using just receiver power (denon 2808) and its worlds better (noticeabily warmer). I would leave it the way it is.... but with the emo I did notice the sound stage was alot bigger (it seemed like all the sound was coming from the screen, I could't really notice the speakers), Now I notice the left-right-center speakers. But because the "extra brite" (compared to the emo) is gone I preffer the denon (lesser of two evils). So I'm convinced with amps.... but I do not know which to buy, that fit my budget and warm/smooth detailed sound that I am looking for. Or am I better off just buying a used 5 channel 1095 or like ect.
O....1 more question I am using an ep2500 for my subs and I had to buy a line level boost (I bought an sms-1) because I could get any volume aut of the subs.......Will I have to do that crap with the Dj amps for the 5 channel also???????

[superchad]

WmAx wrote:

What advantage? Pride of ownership? Prettier chassis? Lack of fans(in cases where you can not practically install the amps in a silencing cabinet, or modify the amps to run quiet)? Those are about the only ones can think of.

I used to run only McIntosh amplification - though this was some time back. Today, I mainly use pro amps. The pro amps? I like them better. A good pro amp is as transparent to human ears as any properly operating 'high end' amplifier. But the pro amp does not waste your money.

-Chris

Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

[thxgoon]

pietsch288

Have you tried playing around with the Audessey built into your Denon? Those RF-7's sure can sound bright on loud passages, I've had some experience with them. IMHO, this is not going to be best solved through the purchase of an amp and it is tough to say which amps if any are going to sound warm. The RF-7's are highly efficient so whatever amp you choose you will not need to choose it for high power rating, and so for this case I'd probably rule out DJ or pro amps as they are geared for power. I would look at some small older amps from Adcom or Parasound or Rotel or Marantz or.... could go on and on. A lot of people say Rotel sounds laid back that may be one to look at. Before you spend your money though, play around with the eq and try moving your speakers if possible. Have you done any room treatments?

[tonyvdb]

The older Yamaha M series from the mid 80's had a great warm sound there are two M80's on ebay right now that would do a great job.

[WmAx]

tonyvdb wrote:

The older Yamaha M series from the mid 80's had a great warm sound there are two M80's on ebay right now that would do a great job.

If they amp really has a 'warm' sound, as could be determined in blinded level-matched tests, and/or measured and compared to known perceptual threshold research of known audibility, then I would question if this is a desirable amplifier design, as it would be substantially altering the amplitude response, or adding considerable low-order distortion harmonics, in order to be perceived as 'warmer'.

Or is this 'warm' assessment of the common non-controlled listening comparision variety?

-Chris

[Mike P.]

Maybe it just sounds "good" to some people. In the end, that's all that matters.

[thxgoon]

Speaking of....

pietsch288 have you thought about tube amplification? I'm not real familiar with them so I don't know if they'd fit your budget.