Samsung BD-UP5000 Duo HD Player

[Sonnie]

There may be some stores that have them locally, but they are all sold out online and there are none available in any of our local stores here.

I ordered one through BBB, but not sure if I'll actually get one or not.

[Scuba Diver]

Good luck.....

Just wondering did you end up getting one?

[tnargs]

Why is a combo player better than a PS3 and a HDDVD player (quite cheap) for the same price?

Get great video, play cool games, and when one format wins the war, upgrade that player to a high performance model and keep the other for occasional obsolete discs?

I already have a good upsampling DVD player Oppo 981, plays DVD and SACD and DVD-A, also HDCD, CD and MP3. Can't see a high-def player replacing this.

I haven't decided yet: combo or twins?

P.S. was there a big market for VHS/Beta combo players?

[imbeaujp]

Combo player have a big advantage : one single ThruHD analog 5.1 audio output and one single HDMI video output. Much easy to hook up on your system and get free space on your rack !

[Scuba Diver]

Of course if the equipment is on a rack that is only 1 or 2 extra cables.

I have watched movies on the PS3 it works just fine. As an upscaler it also does a fine job. If you are a gamer then I don't see anything wrong with a setup that consists of two players.

For me I rent all my movies from BlockBuster and they only carry BluRay. It was a no brainier for me to pick the format they carry. As for waiting till the format war is over. Well..... Hope you aren't holding your breath.

[Sonnie]

I have not received it yet, but it is schedule to ship on 1/18.

I only have room for one player in my dedicated HT room. I have HD-DVDs and BDs and I want to be able to play both. If BD wins out, which it's looking that way, then I'll still be able to play the HD-DVD discs that I have from now on. Although I have considered selling the HD-DVDs and just buying SD-DVDs of those few movies and upconvert them on a BD player.

I don't play games, so I have no use for a PS3... and our daughter already has an XBox 360. I have a couple of XBox games that I picked up when we go the Xbox for her, but I've never even opened them up.

[Scuba Diver]

I understand the reason behind one player, I just don't think it is necessary for everyone. If the player breaks you are out an HD player and a Blu-ray player. If you have two players it is unlikely they will both die at the same time. With that said I think one player would do a great job of keeping things simple and clean on the AV shelf.

[denisincalif]

Wayde wrote:

It's already got TrueHD and DTS HD, what more does it need? 8 channels of high bitrate sound in a lossless format.

I wonder if the new format will use Sony's Direct Stream Digital process?

If BD comes up with its own more power to it. But a lot of SACD fans believe SACD imparts a distinctive sonic characteristic because of it's DSD modulation process. I'm not sure if any high bit PCM process will suffice for the hardcore SACD faithful (of which I am not... I'm just sayin')

I have one of these on order, so I downloaded the user's manual and have been reading it. There are some odd things, like an HDMI set up menu that gives you a choice of saying the HDMI is going to a TV or to a monitor, but nowhere does it say what the actual difference is between these two settings. In fact there are several places where the manual raises more questions than it answers.

But here is the most disturbing thing I have found. On page 10, in a table titled "Logos of discs that can be played", the Dolby TrueHD logo has an asterisk. Below the table is the following:

"When playing a Dolby TrueHD disc, audio will only be heard over the front left and right speakers."

What is going on here? TrueHD supports 7.1 sound (in fact it supports more channels than that). Does this player throw away six channels?

[Sonnie]

I haven't read anything anywhere that indicates this is happening, but then I haven't read everything there is to read. That would seem rather strange.

[Wayde]

Hey guys.

I am currently working on a "first look" review of the UP5000 and there are a lot of 'issues'.

Needless to say the statements attributed to me in the past are based on either legend or pre-release info on the UP5000.

The truth is yes... Dolby TrueHD is capable of 7.1 but at present the 5K isn't capable of it. Nor is it capable of DTS-HD, which makes the player a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned.

However. Samsung maintains they will fix this in a firmware update that is due to be released in May. If you trust Samsung then you have a winning player.

There is some controversey because Samsung has already announced another upcoming dual format HD-player with a model number of UP5500 (I think that's the correct model) - many people are assuming this is the replacement to the 5000 and believe Samsung will ditch any efforts to fix the UP5000 problems audio problems.

I want to say that's not likely. The new player Samsung announced is a slightly lower-end player designed to compete with LG's new combo player. The new player (like the LG BH200) lacks 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs. It doesn't promise any internal decoding.

Samsung has been saying all along that the UP5000 will be capable of decoding TrueHD and DTS-HD internally as well as streaming it through HDMI to be decoded at your AVR.

However, should Samsung reneg on their promise to update the 5K to perform this way, it'll be one of the biggest scandals in consumer electronics I've heard about in a very long time! I personally don't believe a company like Samsung would do this.

If Samsung skipped out on the high-res codecs for the 5K, I think a class action lawsuit would be in order.

If you want to play it safe - don't buy until the firmware that updates the codecs is released.

So far, I've found it to be a nice player and a great answer for anyone like me who wants both players in one... I know I just don't have the space for two separate players.

I'll fill you in soon on what I consider the Ultimate setup configurations for this player that I have found so far.

[denisincalif]

I am currently working on a "first look" review of the UP5000 and there are a lot of 'issues'.

The truth is yes... Dolby TrueHD is capable of 7.1 but at present the 5K isn't capable of it. Nor is it capable of DTS-HD, which makes the player a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned.

. . . . . . . . (some text deleted here)

However. Samsung maintains they will fix this in a firmware update that is due to be released in May. If you trust Samsung then you have a winning player.

Samsung has been saying all along that the UP5000 will be capable of decoding TrueHD and DTS-HD internally as well as streaming it through HDMI to be decoded at your AVR.

Wayde---I am eagerly looking forward to your review.

I had been assuming that this machine would at least stream the TrueHD and DTS-HD audio when set to bitstream mode, and that the firmware update was only required to enable internal decoding and output over the analog jacks. What you just said sounds like it can't even do that much, and a firmware update is required even if your AVR can decode TrueHD and DTS-HD. Is this true? If it is, I have a big decision to make in the next few days. There is still time to cancel my order. But I really want to trust Samsung, because I don't see any near-term alternative to this player.

[Wayde]

Hey denisincalf

It's confirmed by several users that the 5000 cannot stream high-res audio formats through HDMI at present. That's going to be part of the upcoming patch.

To anyone interested...

I've collected a lot of notes from forums around the web, anyone with a specific complaint about the UP5000 I've noted so I can try to recreate their issue. So far, I haven't been able to reproduce most of what is being said is wrong with the player.

One surprise is that Ben Drawbaugh from Endgadget HD is caught up in some of the web-wide anti-BDUP5000 furor. I mean no disrespect - but I don't see why?

His post with his complaints is linked in my notes but all of his problems with the unit are retracted by his own "update".

The UP5000 has had troubles with a lot of Blu-ray discs but a recent patch to the firmware fixed those issues. Notably 3:10 to Yuma wouldn't work in the player. This is resolved! You must update the UP5000 immediately when you get it or you will have troubles with certain discs.

Review notes on BD-UP5000

Originally Posted by Fatawan
******UPDATE******

I received another call back. The spokesperson dug deeper after I voiced my concerns, and was able to contact Korea directly. This is much better news and I will update my original post as well:

1) Regarding 1.1--the 5000 will be 1.1 compliant after the May firmware upgrade.

2) Here's the good part--for Dolby TrueHD, as well as DTS-HD HR AND MA, the May firmware upgrade will enable multichannel capabilities via both the analog outs AND digitally to a compatible receiver/pre-pro via HDMI.

I was very happy to hear this. I had actually started the RMA process, but

Bitstream refers to the raw (unprocessed) data including PCM stereo, PCM multichannel (HDMI) , Dolby Digital legacy, Dolby Digital Plus/TrueHD (HDMI 1.3), DTS legacy and DTS-HD High Resolution/Master Audio (HDMI 1.3).

When the player is set to PCM, all non-PCM formats are converted to PCM (Stereo or Multichannel for HDMI and stereo only for coaxial/toslink).

Audio drop outs and visible “grain”.

Also “judder” in Transformers at 24p
Seems like your seeing the same thing on Transformers that I am, try switching off 24p and see if that makes it go away. Also, on disc two, check out "Autobots roll out" with 24p on and see if the judder is so bad it is unwatchable (this also works fine when 24p is off)

4:3
Test 4:3 SD-DVD through HDMI and Component see if 4:3 issues go away through component.

bitstream audiophile if you want, but there are issues with audioi dropouts with standard DVD's.
you should always pick the uncompressed PCM track if it's available. This is the only lossless track that can currently be handled.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/12...ng-to-deliver/

[tonyvdb]

Wayde wrote:

Hey denisincalf

It's confirmed by several users that the 5000 cannot stream high-res audio formats through HDMI at present. That's going to be part of the upcoming patch.

If your talking about the DTS HD 7.1 and TruHD audio I find it strange that it would not do this right out of the box? What is Samsung thinking? My 1400 does it and its an older generation, by now that should be standard.

[Wayde]

This just keeps getting better and better...

Apparently the BD-UP5000 is to be discontinued in May.

Samsung says it'll continue to support it via firmware updaes and has no plans to reneg on its promise to do full Profile 1.1 and high-res audio codecs in the May patch.

But based on a product being discontinued it sounds like Samsung isn't happy with it and that it's going to fail on some promises.

I am getting suspicious considering this is a flagship model.

There are two new Samsung combo players coming, the 5500 and 6500. The 5500 is to be the lower-end machine with no analogue outputs the 6500 is likley the upper end designed to replace the 5000 - it'll be due out later this year.

It's interesting. Samsung released the 5000 after the Blu-ray Disc Association's mandate that all players be profile 1.1. So, it's likely it'll either patch with firmware or there would be some legal recourse available - from whom I'm not sure, either the BDA or customers.

However, the advanced audio codecs aren't part of the profile, so they really aren't bound to update this at all.

It's a bit of a risk to be sure. If I can't access the advanced codecs I might as well look for an LG BH100 being sold cheap and use it until something better comes along. Or just buy a bargain basement BD player and keep playing back HD DVD on my Xbox 360 add-on.

[denisincalif]

Wayde,

This is turning out to be a real down day! As you pointed out, discontinuing the BD-UP5000 is a very bad sign for people counting on the firmware upgrades to support advanced audio.

I followed the link in your earlier post to engadgethd.com and traced through some of the posts there. There is speculation (no confirmation) that the BD-UP5000 cannot play TrueHD or DTS-HD no matter how hard Samsung tries with firmware updates, because the Broadcom chip inside the player has bugs. Unless Samsung comes out with an official announcement within a few days clarifying all this, fully committing to the firmware upgrades that have been promised, and specifying a realistic date for the firmware release, I will be canceling my order for the BD-UP5000.

I really, really want a good dual-format player. But right now I am having trouble believing such a thing will ever come to pass.

As far as the BD-UP6500 is concerned, given the state of the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD war, I think the 6500 is just a pipe dream. There has been no official announcement from Samsung about plans for it---just an unsubstantiated quote from a Samsung rep at the CES.

[denisincalif]

Wayde,

I see that in the new poll regarding Blu-Ray players you have voted for the Samsung BD-UP5000. Does that mean that, in spite of the discussions the last two days, you are still confident that Samsung will come through with the audio codec firmware update? I must admit that my confidence level is low right now. If it weren't for that uncertainty I would vote for the BD-UP5000 too. Without any assurance from Samsung I don't feel comfortable risking $800. If I give up on the Samsung I will probably wait several months to see what comes along in the pure Blu-Ray world. At the moment none of the Sony or Panasonic Blu-Ray players look all that great to me.

[Sonnie]

I just made the decision to send this one back... unopened box, so Best Buy for Business is even paying for return shipping. I just don't feel good about spending $730 on an already outdated product that isn't even fully functional at the moment. As far as upconversion, I've got the XA2, which does a wonderful job. I think I'm going to opt for the cheap route on the 1400 for now.

[Wayde]

It's just my own decision. I don't consider it necessarily best for Sonnie. Believe me, I’ve thought a lot about it. Prepare for a long one…

I only have space for one player. I already have a lot of HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs, there's no turning back for me being format neutral. I've waited long enough to have a combo player and I have tested just about every Blu-ray player available - including Samsung's 1400. I’ve been using the Xbox 360’s HD DVD add-on.

Worst case scenario…

The UP5000 never gets the firmware updates that provide the audio codecs I want. But, it's still a combo player capable of all the standard audio formats I've enjoyed for years. Yes, I want the lossless codecs badly!

The standalone BD 1.0 players I've played with they're all pretty bad. The best one was the Pioneer which performed like a dream compared to the others and it costs about the same as the UP5000.

The others have bad quirks and lock up problems. They take forever to load, you have to be careful about pressing forward through trailers too quickly or it might lock up and you have to restart it. I’d sacrifice TureHD to not ever have to load a blu-ray disc into a Samsung BD1400 again!

I timed a BD load time recently on the BD1400 (Samsung's current BD player) It took almost five minutes before I'm watching the first frame of a movie from the time you push the drawer in. The UP5000 only takes two mintues for the same disc. And that’s not a knock on the 1400 per-se, Sony’s is the same way.

As for the troubles.... discontinued in May etc.

It's a risk, I know. I'm paying $800 for a disc player I might keep have for a year.
By all accounts Samsung said it intends to release the fix that will make it the ultimate player. I’ll hold out hope that it will.

If it doesn’t what’s the alternative?

A lot of the source for the loss of faith is that Samsung may discontinue this product in May and might replace it with a 6500 nobody knows anything about yet. If the delays and time it took to get the UP5000 to market are any indication - I can just about guarantee this new player is a year away.

The only alternative is to keep using the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on with no lossless codecs etc. And buy a <$500 BD player that I know for certain I’ll be replacing within the year. I don’t see HD DVD closing up shop anytime soon and I believe it’ll see more exclusive Universal releases.

Kicking a player when he’s down

I believe the AVforums and AVSforums, where most of the anti-UP5000 frenzy has occurred, was the result of a kind of knee-jerk mob mentality. Everybody has their reasons for buying/not buying and it’s personal. I mean no disrespect to anyone passing along the things they heard or rumors and subsequent insights. But… you could see the owner’s thread on AVforums getting more and more anti-Samsung as a single day progressed. It was like a feeding frenzy. I think a lot of people were convinced to jump ship just because they read others were.

People were making outrageous claims about the UP5000 on that thread. There are all these reports of problems that… let’s just say I could never replicate.

Grainy picture? Audio cut-outs? Video tearing and judder? No subtitles on a foriegn language HD DVD?

I did head to head evaluations yesterday of the video comparing the UP5000 and BD1400 and saw virtually no difference. At least none that I could detect.

The so-called 4:3 issues are only limited to HDMI too. It’s not really an ‘issue’ per-se. If you want your SD DVDs of old TV shows to show up without its aspect ratios stretched to 16:9, you can’t use HDMI you have to connect to your HDTV using component. I just use both now so I can watch my old TV shows, it’s not really a big deal to me and the amount of 4:3 SD-DVD’s I am liable to watch is almost not even worth the cost of the component cables. Besides I can just watch that stuff in the bedroom.

Inside scoops – broadcom etc

Yes, the Broadcom chip might not be the best solution. Broadcom was probably building its next gen chip before the one used in the UP5000 was finished. Product life cycles are short… welcome to Consumer Electronics. Samsung has made no official announcement about a replacement for the UP5000 yet nor that it’s discontinued.

I don’t think it’s underhanded or dirty business that someone from Samsung didn’t hold a press conference yesterday because four to seven guys on AVforums are complaining that it’s not May yet.

Samsung is a big business and they have a lot of testing to do before they decide the UP5000 is indeed flawed and won’t perform as they promised. And if that turns out to be the case they won’t get away with simply shoving it under the rug and forgetting about it. I personally won’t let them!

If the worst case scenario happens, I have a very good disc player that does both formats, can do lossless-multi-channel only in PCM and can still pipe the same old DD and DTS I’ve been enjoying for years to my AVR. It provides world class upscaling of SD-DVD via Reon chip.

Oh, one more thing - even if the product is discontinued in May doesn’t mean Samsung doesn’t continue to support it. I’ve heard the BD-P1000 is still being supported and still gets firmware updates so it can support new discs.

I’d be very surprised if Samsung poops the bed on this one. Cross-town rival LG wants to work its way into the high-end HT crowd too and there are legendary rivalries across the Sea of Japan between Samsung and Sony/Panasonic.

This ain’t Apex we’re talking about here. These companies have a lot invested in their name to be utterly disgraced. If they did provide no support and no offer of recourse, Samsung would lose a customer in me for the future and I would write about it to anyone willing to read.

[denisincalif]

Wayde,

Nice post. I will probably follow your lead and keep my BD-UP5000 order intact. It is supposed to ship February 5. I like your suggestion of connecting to the TV using both HDMI and component, so you can watch 4:3 SD DVD's from old TV shows without geometric distortion. I have a number of those, including a recently-purchased second season of Saturday Night Live, which I don't want to view warped.

At the moment I have no high definition DVD player of any kind. I have no Xbox 360, let alone its HD add on. And I have no PlayStation. As I said before, I have not seen a Blu-Ray-only player that looks good to me. So I guess I either go with the 5000 or wait about a year. And I am too impatient to wait. If I wind up having to replace this thing in less than three years, I can only hope my wife will understand.

I, like you, cannot believe that Samsung would voluntarily drop the firmware updates, because support for the advanced audio has been promised on all the product brochures and Samsung's web site. But I do have a nagging fear that no updates will work because of the Broadcom chip's rumored problem.

[tonyvdb]

Wow Wayde, thats quite the writeup. Thanks for the info.
Do you think that the 1400 will get more FW updates as the last one was almost 4 months ago that fixed the problem with it playing Fox BluRay dvds.
I'm still taken back at the fact that they would even release the 5000 without it supporting the HighRez formats right out of the box. I'm not impressed.

I might also add the the 1400 does not support playback of DVD+r discs I have two that I have tried and it refuses to recognize them but the play fine in my Toshiba A2