Severe Macroblocking on Upconverted DVDs...

[ShnuggMac]

While anyone who has been following my threads will know, I have been severely dissapointed with my Panny's upconversion abilities on standard DVD; but while I continue to find reasons to support it and give it the benefit of the doubt, I have come up with this insight...

The outdoor, brightly lit scenes of upconverted DVDs look pretty good now that I have scrutinized many sequences from my library over and over again (my Panny is connected via HDMI to my receiver and then running to my TV, with the resolution set to AUTO, which then indicates it's sending a 1080p signal to my Sony)...the problem seems to be in the darker, dimmer, dingier (whatever you want to call them) scenes where a severe macroblocking of colors and textures appears -- almost like a terrible digital pixelation, and it's very distracting. For example, films that feature dark, underwater sequences such as, say, "U-571," whenever there is an underwater shot of the subs, the green of the water looks horribly pixelated and macroblocked, with a shimmery distortion to the details of the image.

Now, I understand upconversion is not going to magically create high definition from 480 lines of resolution, but this digital macroblocking or pixelation breakup is extremely annoying; upon suggestion from another member, I switched resolutions on HDMI to 480p, but while this softened the noise a bit, it also clearly made the image less sharp as when running 1080p; and it did NOT eliminate this "macroblocking".....

Does anyone else experience this with upconversion of their standard DVDs?

[SteveCallas]

Hmm, not me. How big is your screen and have you tried bypassing the receiver?

[ShnuggMac]

SteveCallas wrote:

Hmm, not me. How big is your screen and have you tried bypassing the receiver?

Steve,

Thank you for the reply; my set is a 50" SXRD rear projection (Sony) 1080p, but, no, I never tried bypassing the receiver....I am getting a distinct feeling here that perhaps this Onkyo is somehow degrading the signal, and that's not good. This 605 is supposed to simply pass 1080p right through HDMI with no degredation, but I am beginning to wonder now if the Faroudaj chip in the receiver is doing something to the signal because I also get a strange vertical "banding" through onscreen letters during a film's playback on standard DVD upconversion (at 1080p)....for instance, in the beginning of a film, where the credits are onscreen, the letters have this sharp, vertical "slicing" through them -- a trait I have heard is common with the chip in these receivers, giving the video harsh edges....this wouldn't explain the smearing and marcroblocking I'm getting when watching upconverted DVDs, but....

[SteveCallas]

I'm always weary of routing my video anywhere but directly to the display, no matter the stated bandwidth of the piece of gear. Since you are using a rear projection set and not a projector, I'd have to think you have more than one HDMI input on the display, so I would try it out. That's one of the "issues" I have with HDMI carrying audio - I prefer to keep my video and audio discrete. I personally think the idea of multiple optical connections to carry the new audio formats would have been pretty sweet.

[ShnuggMac]

SteveCallas wrote:

I'm always weary of routing my video anywhere but directly to the display, no matter the stated bandwidth of the piece of gear. Since you are using a rear projection set and not a projector, I'd have to think you have more than one HDMI input on the display, so I would try it out. That's one of the "issues" I have with HDMI carrying audio - I prefer to keep my video and audio discrete. I personally think the idea of multiple optical connections to carry the new audio formats would have been pretty sweet.

Steve,

Thanks again for your help; I am in 100 percent agreement with you that video and audio signals should go DIRECT to their mate -- I have always used component connections from DVD players to displays and coax/optical cables for audio to a receiver -- that is ALWAYS the best way for the best signal transfer, yes....I unfortunately bought into this "hoopla" that these HDMI receivers can simply pass the 1080p signal straight through with no problems or loss of signal -- and I was one of these people who bought the hoopla about HDMI carrying video AND audio and control signals over one cable -- I should have known better.

Yes, my rear projection set has two HDMI inputs; are you suggesting that I run two separate HDMI cables now, one for the new high resolution audio formats to the receiver from the player, and one for video transfer? But how would this work if there is only ONE HDMI A/V OUT from the back of the Blu ray player?? Am I missing something here?

Or are you saying that it WOULD have been sweet if we were allowed to use the optical or coax out to the receivers for these new high def audio codecs? Is that what you're saying? These codecs cant pass unless via HDMI, correct?

[SteveCallas]

If you want to use the new audio formats, you'll have to route the audio and video to the receiver. What I would have liked - and I'm sure some will disagree - would have been a cable for transporting digital video only (DVI), and multiple optical cables in a bunch for the new audio formats. Optical cables are extremely cheap and there's just something about the concept of changing digital information to light and back again that I like. It's fiber optic cables that allow us to communicate around the world without signal degredation.

[ShnuggMac]

SteveCallas wrote:

If you want to use the new audio formats, you'll have to route the audio and video to the receiver. What I would have liked - and I'm sure some will disagree - would have been a cable for transporting digital video only (DVI), and multiple optical cables in a bunch for the new audio formats. Optical cables are extremely cheap and there's just something about the concept of changing digital information to light and back again that I like. It's fiber optic cables that allow us to communicate around the world without signal degredation.

Ahhhhhh...in other words, a DVI (or HDMI) link for video DIRECT from the source to the display, and then several optical lines for the different new codecs -- Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD, etc.....right? Interesting concept; I would have taken a SINGLE optical or coax-like cable to transmit ALL of these new codecs together, like Dolby Digital and DTS are over coax and optical; it seems like this whole HDMI thing has been designed to rape the public and make things more complicated (even though the goal was to make things EASIER by streamlining hookup with one HDMI link....at the end of the day, I still had TWO hookups necessary, like I did with regular DVD, so that promise really didnt happen...I STILL need TWO HDMI cables, one for pass to the receiver and another one to pass to the TV).

I know the higher-bandwidth of the new codecs is the reason why it cannot pass through coax and optical cables, but it would have made more sense for engineers to fix these issues and find a way to pass these surround formats through cables people already own -- like a way to "fit" these soundtracks over a coax or optical line; seems like again, another way to suck people dry with cable purchases.

At any rate, I have been thinking about my options, and they seem to have come down to this:

I can keep the Blu ray player I have and continue just "dealing" with the poor upconversion quality with all the macroblocking and artifacts, while the unit continues sending these new codecs through PCM (which dont sound all that great to me) when I play Blu ray discs, OR I can simply add COMPONENT cables out of the Blu ray player to watch standard DVDs (wait -- this wouldnt make sense, would it? Being that I ALREADY have an HDMI cable hooked up to the player, could I add a component link, too? One would have to be removed, right? Jeeeez....Im getting lost again here; it would have to be ONE or the OTHER, right? HDMI OR COMPONENT?).....OR, I could live with this player for now and wait until a new generation deck comes out that passes ALL codecs through BITSTREAM, including DTS MASTER AUDIO and replace this player for a new one (being that I believe the bitstream-passed codecs should sound better decoded at my receiver with proper bass management applied rather than the PCM fashion they're passing now); OR I can leave this player alone for Blu ray duties only and buy a good upconverting DVD player just for playback of standard DVD....OR, I can sell this player and just replace it with a good upconverting DVD player -- the problem with much of this is that because the upconversion of regular DVDs has been so poor on my Sony screen, this probably will happen with any player I hook up to it. We have to assume I would use HDMI out from a DVD player to the screen direct (with digital audio going through optical for the standard surround codecs) and upconvert all the way up to 1080p, so would the difference be staggering over what this Panasonic is doing now? I dont know; the upside to this would be that the HDMI video out would be going DIRECT into my screen instead of through a receiver and then to the screen....

Jesus.....do you have any recommendations for me based on these feelings? Do you HONESTLY think the Onkyo receiver is causing major signal degredation here?

Thanks for all your continued assistance; I appreciate it.

[SteveCallas]

Can't say anything for sure, but it seems like it would be a pretty easy test to just route the HDMI from the player directly to your display to see if the picture gets any better. If it does, living with optical and "regular" DD and DTS ain't exactly the end of the world

[ShnuggMac]

SteveCallas wrote:

Can't say anything for sure, but it seems like it would be a pretty easy test to just route the HDMI from the player directly to your display to see if the picture gets any better. If it does, living with optical and "regular" DD and DTS ain't exactly the end of the world

Indeed, Steve, indeed....it would be FAR from the end of the world....

The problem, coming back to the point of the thread though, is the video imaging....my system seems to behave in the strangest fashion; it seems the upconverting quality of this Blu ray deck seems to vary from disc to disc. Last night, we rented "Deck the Halls" (the new comedy with Danny DeVito and Matthew Broderick -- it wasn't that great to say the least) on standard DVD, along with Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End on Blu ray and "Waitress" on regular DVD; we watched Deck the Halls first, and the picture quality, for standard 480 DVD, was absolutely amazing and gorgeous. Sure, it wasn't PERFECT...it still is 480, upscaled, but the video image was clean with very, very little source grain or noise and nothing seemed to be interjected from the player....I didn't understand this, as other discs I play seem to have problems upconverted. At any rate, I chucked this up to the transfer being so new and the colors being so bright (not to mention the gorgeous twin blondes in their "Mrs. Claus" miniskirts and fishnets that play DeVito's unlikely daughters, but I digress.....) that the picture looked so good upconverted. I watched Pirates 3 after that, and for a 1080p source, the video looked granier and noisier than the Deck the Halls DVD transfer -- go figure THAT one out. Oh well.

So, I'm trying to live with these "macroblocking" issues on dark DVD transfers and continuing to wonder if the effect is normal -- normal for us to see these issues, I mean. Watching films that already had bad transfers is a headache in DVD form on this player....Batman Begins, Superman Returns....jeez....the noise and grain and macroblocking in the background make me take the player off and eject the disc.

As I said, some discs look okay and some look horrible, and some, especially films with really dark murky sequences, exhibit severe macroblocking and a terrible "color freezing" effect with "digital smearing" in the background....and then, some discs look great, like the Deck the Halls DVD we rented. I suppose I will be holding onto this Blu ray player for awhile, using it for a DVD player as well, and dealing with the uneven behavior of its upconverting abilities. It's probably silly to buy a secondary upconverting DVD player at this point, put it in the rack, and find an available audio HDMI assigned input for it in the receiver, too.