Can Someone Please Tell Me What is Going On Here? Part II...

[ShnuggMac]

Let me explain the situation from scratch, first, because I had some of these issues addressed in here some time ago but the "conditions" and symptoms were never really resolved. Being a long-time home theater enthusiast and becoming completely and utterly comfortable with the workings of the standard definition DVD soundtracks and connections and such (coaxial/optical connections, Dolby Digital/DTS audio), I was excited to take the next evolutionary jump into high definition and hear these new "high resolution surround codecs" which were supposed to provide audio leaps and bounds beyond what compressed Dolby and DTS tracks could offer; not to mention the gorgeous 1080p video resolution which was supposed to look so real, rich and popping that it would be almost as if the actors were in our laps....so catalogs like "Crutchfield" would have us believe....

At any rate, eager to buy into this confusing and misleading world of HDMI cables and alphanumeric references to codecs and resolutions, me and my better half purchased an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver, which does all the next-generation formats, and a Panasonic Blu-ray player (the second-generation model, with the "A" at the end of the model code). We also purchased a Sony SXRD rear projection 50" screen to watch it all on. Working with an installer who was recommended to us in this area, he and I hooked everything up and I have been living with this system for a good month or so now, yet I have many questions and concerns about the way this system is behaving...

First of all, let me explain how the system is all set up so someone could confirm for me that everything is connected right. We have the Blu ray player's HDMI OUT (connected with a Monster HDMI cable speed rated to pass the latest uncompressed audio and high def video if I am not mistaken; this was a $100 cable) running right to the Onkyo's HDMI IN 1....from there, we have another HDMI cable (purchased by me from the installer who claimed this was a great, shielded, high performance cable; it cost me 70 bucks but this thing is black and THICK) running from the Onkyo's HDMI OUT terminal to my Sony TV's HDMI IN. In the receiver, everything seems to be set right -- the HDMI MONITOR is ON to pass the video, etc; this Sony display can accept and display 1080p images, and the Panasonic Blu ray player can play 1080p images, so I am assuming 1080p, when set that way in the player, is passing RIGHT THROUGH the receiver with no degredation of the signal....yet, discs dont look all that great. Ill get to that in a minute.

Now, I SPECIFICALLY and ONLY bought this receiver because it could decode the next generation surround formats -- I was coming off of an older Onkyo TX-SR600 which worked just fine and would have continued to be the centerpiece of my system if not for the fact that I wanted to hear these next generation codecs...alas, I was misled by salesmen in my area and other media hype that these second generation Blu ray players could pass these new formats via bitstream to the new receivers like my Onkyo, which I found out they cannot. That was after I spent 600 bucks on the player. So now let me get into the specifics of the problems I am having with the gear.

It all seems to be coming from settings in the Panasonic player's menu...perhaps I simply do not have something set right, or it may be plain old fashioned high expectations for this technology, but something is getting me utterly confused. First of all, in the player's SETUP menu, there are selections under the AUDIO menu for "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" -- which the MANUAL says are for adjusting audio coming from the player's COAX or OPTICAL outputs -- nothing about HDMI. The only connection I have made is with HDMI from this unit; under this menu are selections for EVERY codec available with this machine: Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS and DTS HD -- Master Audio is not supported. Now, I had originally set, along with my installer, all of these to BITSTREAM, but later changed the settings of the high resolution codecs to PCM when I found out the player couldn't pass the bitstream signals to my receiver. So, when playing standard definition DVDs, the audio tracks pass just fine -- I select Dolby Digital or DTS from the disc menu and my receiver lights up "DOLBY D" or "DTS" on the front display, as always...so no problems there. The issues have been coming in with the Blu ray discs and their soundtracks.

On many Blu ray titles, as everyone knows, there are these "Uncompressed PCM" soundtracks to choose from; I was told and informed that these were excellent to listen to in comparison to other lossy legacy codecs. However, when watching titles like Spider Man 3 or Pirates of the Caribbenan, choosing the Uncompressed 5.1 option makes my receiver read "MULTICH" on the display and illuminates the small "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" logos above it, making we wonder if the system is operating correctly....am I hearing the uncompressed audio if the receiver is displaying this information? And that leads to another issue. Why don't these uncompressed tracks sound that great to me? I seem to lose LFE level when playing these tracks (I have actually heard that using the multichannel mode of these receivers drops bass by 10dB or so...is this true?) and there seems to be a loss of directionality; like the audio is coming through in surround, yes, with directional information in the surrounds when they're supposed to be...but the overall impact doesnt feel like regular Dolby/DTS surround....like something is missing....is this normal?

Now, here is the next issue: when playing tracks that need to be "downmixed," I dont really understand what is going on or what the best way to play them would be....let me explain. This Panasonic deck does not support "DTS Master Audio," and according to the manual, standard DTS will be used as an alternative here....so, with the few Fox titles I have on Blu ray, like "Live Free or Die Hard" and the "Fantastic 4" discs, the Master Audio tracks seem to behave weird in my system....if I keep the "DTS-HD" audio setting in the player on BITSTREAM when playing these tracks, the receiver and player do the HDMI handshake and then the receiver reads "DTS" on the display while the audio display on the Blu ray player's onscreen information grid reads "DTS HD MULTI"....this suggests to me that the player is extracting the "core" DTS mix from the Master Audio track and sending that to the receiver....if I leave the "DTS-HD" setting in the player on PCM and then play these Master Audio tracks, then the receiver displays the exact same thing it does when playing the Uncompressed PCM tracks -- it reads "MULTICH" in the middle of the display and then "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" in small logos above it....what is going on here? The manual suggests that by keeping PCM set for these high resolution audio codecs, the machine is decoding the soundtrack and sending a 2-channel signal to the receiver -- but is that what is really happening? What am I hearing when sending these "Master Audio" tracks from the discs in PCM form as opposed to BITSTREAM? Which is the "better" way to listen to them? To be honest, leaving the setting on BITSTREAM and watching "Live Free or Die Hard" last night, the "Master Audio" track sounded punchier, heavier and better with this "extracted core DTS" mix, or whatever was going on, than by running the mix with the PCM setting from the player and letting the receiver see a "Multichannel" signal....something just seemed to be missing doing it that way....but what the heck is actually going on here? There was DEFINITELY much more bass and punch by leaving the player on BITSTREAM in the "DTS-HD" audio setting. But is this right?

And that leads to another serious question regarding the settings on this player...first of all, if the manual is claiming that this "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" menu, under SETUP, is for affecting changes to the coax and optical outs, then WHY are the high definition codecs, which cannot be passed this way and only through HDMI, available to be adjusted in this menu?? In other words, why are Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS HD available to be adjusted (PCM/BITSTREAM) in this "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" setup menu when these are only being affected by HDMI audio? There IS an HDMI menu in the SETUP menu, which offers selections of HDMI AUDIO ON or OFF and HDMI VIDEO ON or OFF, plus resolution selections up to 1080p (I keep this setting on AUTO, which chooses 1080p because of my TV it is connected to)....but the main audio choices are in that DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT menu which allows selections for BITSTREAM or PCM for ALL audio codecs supported by this machine....is this weird or am I just missing something? Should I keep the legacy codecs (Dolby Digital/DTS) on BITSTREAM, since these could be passed, and the new codecs on PCM? But then why did "Live Free or Die Hard" sound better when I switched the "DTS-HD" audio selection to BITSTREAM? And nothing needs to be switched or set for these "Uncompressed PCM" tracks, correct? These just get passed as is to the receiver -- no setting anywhere needs to be made for PCM/BITSTREAM, etc? I have heard conflicting opinions on the best way to listen to these tracks -- via the receiver's MULTICHANNEL mode, which mine defaults to when playing these tracks, or through the DIRECT mode, which I have been told actually eliminates the LFE channel and all bass management and such; what mode should be used here?

Now, what is going on with the "SPEAKER SETTINGS" menu under the SETUP MENU's CONNECTION tab? Here, you can set the player to "MULTI CHANNEL" or "2 CHANNEL"....the manual states that by setting the speakers to MULTI CHANNEL, this sends the signal to a receiver or processor that CANNOT do calibration levels, distances, etc (which of course my Onkyo, and almost all other ones do) so the PLAYER handles it internally....by setting the speakers to 2-CHANNEL, this sends the signals to a receiver that CAN decode formats, do levels, etc....but, when playing with these settings, something weird happens on my system. You would think, based on what the manual says, I should keep this setting on 2-CHANNEL because I AM connected to equipment that decode formats and such; but by keeping the player on 2-CHANNEL, this screws with multichannel PCM signals coming into the receiver, allowing me to use those weird DSP modes like "All Channel Stereo" and "Orchestra"....leaving the speaker setting on MULTICHANNEL locks the player into the MULTICHANNEL mode when playing PCM tracks; but this seems backwards compared to what the manual is saying....can someone clarify this for me? What the heck should this be set to.....and why?

Now, if the player is set to MULTI CHANNEL, is this somehow affecting bass management and time delays, etc. at my receiver when playing these high resolution audio codecs in PCM? It seems, as I said, I am losing LFE levels when playing these tracks in PCM and the receiver reads "MULTICH" on the display; is something being affected here, because when setting the player to Multi Channel for speaker output, there is a separate menu there for adjusting the speaker levels, sizes, distance delays, etc....but this was already done in my receiver -- but is anything being affected here when passing the PCM tracks of these sound mixes to the receiver via multichannel PCM with the player set to "MULTI CHANNEL"? I mean, are the sounds from the player's speaker setup (even though I have everything set to ZERO on these) affecting the audio with this setup? I want the receiver to handle all bass management and calibrations. Can someone lend some insight here?

I have a great deal more to discuss, but I'm off with the better half now do to some chores and such, so if someone could please take a moment to read this and assist with at least some of it I would greatly, greatly appreciate it and reply as soon as I get another chance. Thank you in advance!

[RollsRoyce]

Definitely use the "Multichannel" setting, but be advised that your 605 can't layer 6.1 or 7.1 over 5.1 PCM.

The 10 dB "loss" in bass has been an issue for years dating back to the first SACD and DVD Audio players. Both DD and DTS boost the bass/LFE by 10 dB, and since they are what most people are familiar with, and what most receivers are set up with, LPCM is considered to be bass-shy.

[ShnuggMac]

Definitely use the "Multichannel" setting, but be advised that your 605 can't layer 6.1 or 7.1 over 5.1 PCM.

Thank you very much for your assistance, Rolls Royce; this is much appreciated. So, are you telling me that it IS correct when the 605 reads "MULTICH" on the display when these PCM tracks are being played? Let me explain in detail how the operation of my system kicks in and perhaps you cand lend some insight as to whether or not it's working properly....

When I select the "UNCOMPRESSED 5.1 PCM" audio track from a Blu ray menu, my receiver does the HDMI handshake with the player and the display reads "MULTICH" on the large area of the display, with "HDMI MULTICHANNEL PCM" illuminated above it in smaller logos....so, is the receiver SEEING the correct signal? If so, then great; the issue was clouded by someone else who told me perhaps the DIRECT mode should be used for playing these PCM tracks; is this not correct?

The ONLY listening modes I can use while playing PCM tracks on this Onkyo are DIRECT and MULTICHANNEL; the receiver wont let me cycle through any other listening modes....does this sound normal? In other words, I can't use DOLBY D or DTS for playing back uncompressed PCM; I suppose this is correct, yes? But can you confirm for me if DIRECT should or can be used as an alternative to the MULTICHANNEL mode with these uncompressed tracks?

Also, even though I am not using the Blu ray player's ANALOG OUTS to connect to my receiver, ONLY HDMI, the receiver should STILL indicate a MULTICHANNEL signal coming in when playing the PCM tracks? Again, the ONLY connections made are HDMI...

Now, with regard to your "layering" statement, what do you mean the 605 won't "layer" the 6.1 or 7.1 over PCM -- you mean I cannot play 6.1 or 7.1 tracks over PCM? This hasnt really been a problem in that I have no titles in my collection as of now (in Blu ray, that is) which carry anything beyond a 5.1 mix, and I only have a 5.1 speaker array....can you elaborate a little here? Thank you.

The 10 dB "loss" in bass has been an issue for years dating back to the first SACD and DVD Audio players. Both DD and DTS boost the bass/LFE by 10 dB, and since they are what most people are familiar with, and what most receivers are set up with, LPCM is considered to be bass-shy.

Whew.....this was good to know.....thank you for clarifying this for me. There is a definite lack of LFE on my system when playing these PCM mixes; some others on all these home theater sites claim they get wall-rattling wallops of bass from the uncompressed tracks, but they must have their subs jacked way up or something else is going on, because I sure don't get that kind of bass....

You know what bothers me about this too? These uncompressed PCM tracks are supposed to be the "next big thing" in high def audio and are supposed to "rattle the cages" of every DTS and Dolby equipped disc out there -- but if the bass is shallow and shy, as you call it, and the surround activity doesnt feel as foreceful as Dolby and DTS, what real sonic benefit are we getting from uncompressed LPCM? To be honest, these tracks sound about as good as a well-mastered DTS mix would, or Dolby Digital for that matter.

Thanks again for all your help.

[RollsRoyce]

Yes to all your questions except for a couple of things. One is using Direct mode. IIRC, Direct bypasses all bass management including crossover and speaker distance (the 705 manual says "minimal processing"). I personally think that one really should have those things active, and don't use it.

By 'layering', I mean matrixing 5.1 PCM out to 6 or 7 channels plus sub. I believe your receiver should play back a true 6.1 or 7.1 PCM signal correctly. It just won't expand out a 5 channel signal like DPLIIx does.

In my view, the big advantage of LPCM is clarity, not dynamic range or bass punch. The new Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio codecs use lossless compression, so they should sound virtually identical to LPCM.

[ShnuggMac]

Yes to all your questions except for a couple of things. One is using Direct mode. IIRC, Direct bypasses all bass management including crossover and speaker distance (the 705 manual says "minimal processing"). I personally think that one really should have those things active, and don't use it.

Okay, so DO NOT use DIRECT mode, correct? Why is it that switching between DIRECT and MULTICHANNEL when playing these uncompressed tracks, I dont hear much -- if anything -- of a sonic difference? They both sound...well....kind of "less meaty" than a Dolby or DTS mix....

By 'layering', I mean matrixing 5.1 PCM out to 6 or 7 channels plus sub. I believe your receiver should play back a true 6.1 or 7.1 PCM signal correctly. It just won't expand out a 5 channel signal like DPLIIx does.

Oh, okay.....got it now. No big deal, since Im only running five speakers and a sub.

In my view, the big advantage of LPCM is clarity, not dynamic range or bass punch. The new Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio codecs use lossless compression, so they should sound virtually identical to LPCM.

Well, that cannot be too good because the LPCM tracks are not that bass heavy or punchy; you mean to tell me even when the players arrive on the market with the ability to send these codecs bitstream to a receiver that can decode them (like my TX-SR605), the dynamic punch still won't be there with the RECEIVER decoding the Master Audio or TrueHD?

Indeed, it seems like I got caught up in the "PCM" marketing hoopla and expected too much; thanks for your continued help. I agree these tracks seem to be aiming for more clarity than in-your-face loudness, which I thought is what would occur over the standard Dolby and DTS codecs....

[RollsRoyce]

I really haven't tried comparing multichannel and direct modes when playing back PCM soundtracks, but if they sound the same, it could be because the receiver is doing essentially the same processing on both signal types (little or no bass management, etc.).

True HD and DTS-HD MA might have an edge in that they could be getting full signal processing including bass management, because they are the next generation of current surround-sound formats that DO include those things. Does that make sense? I haven't gone to the Dolby and DTS websites to check their specs, but it makes sense to me that they would. So you would essentially have PCM clarity with full bass management and surround processing.

[bobgpsr]

Don't forget the room equalization that the AVR can do (YPAO, Audessey, etc). That will be done for Multichannel linear PCM input but not when in Direct mode or when using 5.1 analog inputs.

[ShnuggMac]

I really haven't tried comparing multichannel and direct modes when playing back PCM soundtracks, but if they sound the same, it could be because the receiver is doing essentially the same processing on both signal types (little or no bass management, etc.).

Jesus, I wish something was a bit more definitive here; I hear what you're saying, but the verdict is still out on which is the "ideal" way to play back these PCM tracks....

I rented Pirates of the Caribbean At World's End and watched it last night, selecting Disney's infamous "Uncompressed 5.1" soundtrack choice; the track was okay, but like every other PCM track I play, there seems to be little to no information in the surrounds, and the whole mix seems front heavy with little bass....on top of that, the picture was pretty noisy and grainy for supposed 1080p video, but thats another story. The audio wasn't that "hefty" feeling in PCM and my surrounds act like they're barely even on with these tracks; with standard DVD's Dolby and DTS audio, the surrounds, when called for in an action film for example, are constantly used and are aggressive. This doesn't happen in PCM.

True HD and DTS-HD MA might have an edge in that they could be getting full signal processing including bass management, because they are the next generation of current surround-sound formats that DO include those things. Does that make sense? I haven't gone to the Dolby and DTS websites to check their specs, but it makes sense to me that they would. So you would essentially have PCM clarity with full bass management and surround processing.

You mean, when these tracks are passed BITSTREAM.....yes?

[ShnuggMac]

bobgpsr wrote:

Don't forget the room equalization that the AVR can do (YPAO, Audessey, etc). That will be done for Multichannel linear PCM input but not when in Direct mode or when using 5.1 analog inputs.

Bob,

A couple of things here....first of all, my Audessey has not been engaged because the auto setup system just didn't work for my room, so the speakers were calibrated manually -- so this would have no affect on the incoming PCM signal, I assume. Now, are you suggesting that using the receiver's MULTICHANNEL mode to play these PCM tracks should be the correct way because of all the audio elements that are attributed to the receiver's handling of the audio?

In other words, let's break this down....my Blu ray player ONLY has an HDMI link -- THAT IS ALL -- running to the receiver's HDMI INPUT 1, and then HDMI OUT from the receiver to my Sony TV's HDMI input....I AM NOT RUNNING ANALOG 5.1/7.1 OR ANY OTHER DIGITAL COAX/OPTICAL CONNECTION FROM THE PLAYER....even with THIS setup, would MULTICHANNEL be the correct mode for the receiver to play the PCM tracks back in? When I play these PCM tracks off the disc's menu, the HDMI handshake ensues and the receiver defaults to reading "MULTICH" on the display with PCM/HDMI/MULTICHANNEL illuminated in small letters above it....but I thought MULTICHANNEL mode on a receiver was ONLY if the receiver was accepting ANALOG connections from a DVD player -- I am NOT running ANYTHING ANALOG, ONLY HDMI....does MULTICHANNEL still apply here? I can't seem to get a straight answer on this.

And if MULTICHANNEL is not the correct sound mode for playing uncompressed PCM tracks, then what is? DIRECT?

And do my player's SPEAKER SETTINGS in the setup menu affect audio if I'm only running an HDMI connection, no analog?