Considering the PS3 for my Blu-ray player...

[wbassett]

Ayreonaut wrote:

In what way would bitstreaming the undecoded audio to the receiver be better than decoding them to multichannel PCM in the player first?

The only thing I can see right now is if the receiver does a better job at decoding than the player. For majority of people it most likely won't make a difference or matter to them, but I agree it should have been left as a user option.

Unless there is a physical limitation with the PS3, this may be something that can be addressed with a future update.

This part is going to be my personal opinion on the PS3 and Sony, so take this with a grain of salt-

When I bought my PS3, BD players were still floundering and very buggy. In fact the Samsung in the store went belly up just moving it so we could demo some discs on a TV I was interested in. It worked fine until it was powered down, unplugged and moved and then it wouldn't read any disc we tried and the store associate tried three or four different BD discs including the original demo disc that the unit was playing in its original display. They did have Sony's flagship player, but at that time it was something like $899 and I wasn't about to pay that much, so I went with the PS3.

When I got home I found out it would not upconvert SDVD (even though the store employees said it would). I was more than a bit miffed about this, but it has since been resolved with a firmware update. That part isn't opinion or speculation, it's this next part and comment... I think Sony did it intentionally.

Let me explain why I feel that way. Sony had two systems out, the PS3 which they knew was going to sell like hotcakes to the gaming community, but as we all know it also plays Bluray discs. However Sony was also trying to push their flagship BD player as the best Bluray player out there. The PS3, if all features and functionality were enabled right from the start would have mopped the floor with their own BD player that they were trying to sell. In a sense they were actually competing with themself so they crippled the PS3 to make the stand alone BD player a better player with more features and functionality.

Over time they released firmware updates to unlock functions within the PS3, but I firmly feel their first concern is their stand alone players. If you think about it that makes sense. Personally I think they should have made the PS3 look like any other peice of HT gear so it would integrate nicely with any decor, but for those wanting to play games it could also do that as well. They would then have had one system and expense instead of two BD players, which one just happens to be able to play games as well.

That actually wouldn't be a new concept. Years ago Pioneer tried that with one of their laser disc players. It had a modular slot where you could put in different console 'modules' and play games right from your laser disc player. It was a day late and dollar short though because DVD had already come out and laser disc was already being abandoned since DVD was superior and less expensive. (Anyone else remember those $40 or higher Laser disc prices on some titles? )

So yes, I do feel Sony keeps the PS3 down in some ways. They (Sony) love it being included in the overall list of BD players sold, but they don't exactly want to treat it as a dedicated player, and yes some people bought it solely as a Bluray player and not to play games. Again this is my opinion... aside from not having dedicated 5.1 Analog Outputs, but not all players have that feature either, the PS3 really is a power house and one of the few units that will be able to go from first generation player through all the profiles.

I don't think the internal decoding is a reason to shy away from the PS3. When I bought my PS3 I called Sony and they said they had no idea if the PS3 would be able to upconvert SDVD or if/when a firmware update to enable it would be released. I'll be looking into if there is a hardware reason why the PS3 can't pass undecoded audio to the receiver, but right now I can't say for certain and think it also will be something that will be 'unlocked' with a future FW update... but I could very well be wrong and maybe it will never be able to do it.

Edit:
Bob just answered this as far if it ever will be able to do it... sounds like future consoles but not current ones.

[yourgrandma]

I think Sony uses Criple Ware all over the place to wedge people into buying the more expensive models.

I suppose it does a better job of upconverting than my Denon DVD-1920, with it's big ole processor. I'm going to keep the DVD player for DVD-A and SACD, but I also would like to avoid using the ps3 all the time. Remember what happened to PS2s when people uswed them as dvd players? I never did with mine, but everyone I know who did reported that it just quit working altogether.

[wbassett]

yourgrandma wrote:

Remember what happened to PS2s when people uswed them as dvd players? I never did with mine, but everyone I know who did reported that it just quit working altogether.

I can report that I've had my PS3 on for hours at a time with no problems. In fact we went to PA over Halloween and when I came home the PS3 was powered on. I think maybe the cat may have turned it on by touching the on pad... no matter though, it was on for at least a solid day and maybe even as long as a week by the time we got home.

I was worried about it over heating when I first got it, but so far I've had it a year and not one hiccup.

[MrPorterhouse]

yourgrandma wrote:

I think Sony uses Criple Ware all over the place to wedge people into buying the more expensive models.

I suppose it does a better job of upconverting than my Denon DVD-1920, with it's big ole processor. I'm going to keep the DVD player for DVD-A and SACD, but I also would like to avoid using the ps3 all the time. Remember what happened to PS2s when people uswed them as dvd players? I never did with mine, but everyone I know who did reported that it just quit working altogether.

I bought a PS2 back in 2000 and used it as my DVD player for 3 years. Never had a single problem. I always took care of my equipment and didn't bash it up like many times happens to video game consoles.

As far as the 40GB PS3, in addition to the above, I believe that Sony dropped the SACD support. SACD is only offered on the 80GB, and the older 20GB and 60GB versions.

I also believe that Sony based the chipset on the SI9132, but it was a modified 9132 chip. The exact functions and capability are not public, but it is still speculated that the PS3 will not be able to pass bitstream high rez audio. The PS3 will instead decode onboard and send out as PCM, which is actually more compatible with legacy HDMI 1.1 receivers out there. You won't need a receiver that has the new audio decoders. People were worried(back in 2006) that Sony was going to ONLY offer bitstream output, which would force consumers to upgrade their HDMI 1.1 equipment. It turns out(by total consequence) that Sony has actually offered a more universal route to consumers.

[bobgpsr]

MrPorterhouse wrote:

II also believe that Sony based the chipset on the SI9132, but it was a modified 9132 chip.

Why was it modified -- when the part on the circuit board says SiI9132?
Otherwise known as the Silicon Image SiI9132 VastLane Gaming transmitter.

Read this or this.

[Hakka]

The ps3 supports the deep color features of HDMI 1.3, unfortunately neither BluRay or HDDVD use deep color.

Hakka.

[bobgpsr]

Hakka wrote:

The ps3 supports the deep color features of HDMI 1.3, unfortunately neither BluRay or HDDVD use deep color.

But games or video post processing can use Deep Color -- FWIW.

[yourgrandma]

One last question before I go pick this bad boy up. Will I be able to get 720p through component video? I don't have an HDMI cable long enough to run to my PJ (at all actually), so I would be most disappointed if I had to wait a week to get HD.

[yourgrandma]

Sonnie, did you ever decide what to do?

I'm starting to regret my purchace, as my failure to do my homework has led to the rather startling discovery that the PS3 is no better for audio than a SD DVD player. Looks like I wont be selling the Denon to get the Onkyo...

[Funkmonkey]

Looks like this thread has talked me into waiting to purchase a PS3 a little longer. I've been torn between PS3 or replacing my oppo 981 (nice player but mine was defective) with a 980, or wait a bit and get the upcoming 983, all for SD-DVD upconversion. The perk w/ the PS3 for me would be Blu-Ray, but since it lacks the audio side on Blu-Ray I guess I am going to wait a bit longer...

Anyone hear about any new (or upcoming) standalone Blu-Ray players that are exceptional?

[Sonnie]

I ordered the PS3.

Why is your PS3 not giving you the audio you want?


EDIT: Oh... okay... now I remember, you have the 3803 and it doesn't have HDMI. You just need to upgrade your receiver. I thought you were going to get the Onkyo 805 or 875.

[yourgrandma]

I am getting an 805, but the PS3 is NOT capable of sending DTS MA. I've been getting conflicting answers to the question of whether it will send any 7.1 sound. It also does not allow for outboard processing (who cares).

Currently the system limitation for me is the receiver, but when that is replaced, the PS3 will be applying it's evil sony crippleware to my system.

The problem may or may not be resolved by a firmware update in the near future, depending on who you ask. Some say the issue is hardware, but the PS3 should be able to do anything the software asks it to, as it runs a regular computer chipset. However the issue may not actually lie in the decoding, but rather the HDMI chip.

All this sounds to me like a great way for sony to make a potentially great product mediocre to prop up sales of another product.

I just hope I don't end up wasting my rear surrounds.

I'll be posting post processing questions tomorrow in the AVR subforum.

[Sonnie]

Is anything sending DTS-MA and is there anything capable of decoding it at this point?

[wbassett]

Sound and Vision still rates the PS3 as one of the best Bluray players. It's also been tested along side the Pioneer Elite Bluray player in other magazines and given equal performance ratings.

In the January 2008 issue of S&V:

Sound&Vision wrote:

Everyone knows the PlayStation 3 as a cutting-edge game console,but a lot of people don't know that it's one of the best high-def Blu-ray Disc players available. When Al Griffin decided it was Certified & Recommended worthy, he said, "Most Blu-ray Discs that I watched with the PS3 looked stunningly good [and] my audio experiences with the PS3 were equally powerful."

He enthusiastically concluded, "With its crisp 1080p Blu-ray Disc playback, wide-ranging audio options, and mounds of other network and gaming features, the Sony PlayStation 3 is nothing short of awesome... Sony's PS3 game console is one of the most exciting, well-executed home theater products I've laid my hands on in a long time."

S&V gives equally impressive praises and reviews of Toshiba's XA2 HD DVD player so I don't see a bias towards one or the other. In fact they still list the XA2 as one of their recommendation options when building a Home Theater.

In April of 2007 Home Theater Magazine did a comparison between the Philips BDP9000, Pioneer BDP-HD1, Samsung BD-P1000, and the PS3.

Home Theater Magazine wrote:

The Pioneer is the only of the group that looks its price. The PS3 looks better than it's $500/$600 price tag, and the Philips and Samsung look more liked gussied-up DVD players. The again, it [The Pioneer BDP-HD1] better look its price, seeing it's $500 more than the Philips and Samsung players, and three times the price of the cheaper version of the PS3. (Remember this article was back in April 2007 and reflects the higher prices of that time) ...

... The vaunted PlayStation 3 does just about everything you'd want in a consumer electronics product. It plays all discs (except HD DVDs), stores media, plays games, lets you surf the Web, eats babies, looks cool, and invites both envy and ridicule equally.

It's image quality seems to be roughly the same as the Pioneer's, and navigating via the regular controller wasn't too obnoxious once I got used to it. (A real remote is also available.) It switches between tracks the fastest of the bunch, and along with the Pioneer, it's the only one that lets you advance and rewind frame by frame. (The others can only go forward per frame.) If it's already on, a disc will start nearly instantaneously. If you insert a disc with the unit off it takes about 25 seconds to start the movie. The Samsung takes almost twice that time. This thing's computing power is really impressive.

Almost a year between those reviews and it still gets raves and comments as being one of the best Bluray players out there. As for the audio... I'm not sure what the problem is with decoding inside the PS3 and passing that to the receiver via HDMI or letting the receiver do it- unless the receiver is known to do a better job decoding... As far as other audio being limited to what can be passed through the Toslink, my A2 has the same limitations, but both still sound fantastic. When I upgrade my receiver, both my A2 and the PS3 will be able to feed it and my guess is sound better than what I have now, but between the two players a negligible if even any perceivable difference between the two.

I'm still not sold on dual format players. The LG was quirky at best and I'd like to see a little more real world feed back on the latest generation of dual format players. Their prices are coming down though so if a person is looking to get into High Def disc playback it's no longer much (if any) of a price factor between getting a dual format player or a dedicated HD DVD player and dedicated BD player. (I have two HD DVD players and a PS3 and all three cost less than what the LG would have set me back.)

The PS3 may not be 'perfect' but I don't see any 'perfect' players out there. Upgradability and raw horse power along with future features that can be added or unlocked it really is a power house of a player. Still it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but performance wise I would have no problem recommending it as a BD player to anyone. When BD players come down in price to a more reasonable and competetive price tag, then the PS3 will start to lose it's appeal to many- but I don't see sub $200 priced Bluray players for some time, and by the time we get to the $100 and under mark with BD... we may be looking at the next gen of HD delivery already showing up. (In other words, I don't expect $100 BD players for a number of years yet.)

I'll be political now ... I won't say the PS3 is THE best Bluray player out there, but it is one of the best. Feature wise and everything it can do, dollar for dollar, and like they say in boxing, pound for pound, it's the best deal out there in that sense. No other player, HD DVD or BD can do what the PS3 can do.

Back to something mentioned and that's all from me for now... Future HD Delivery systems... The PS3 seems capable of even handling them, whether it's media cards or network download content stored to a hard drive. Only the 40GB PS3 lacks the media card reader and if that becomes an HD delivery system, that particular model will be left behind but the rest are ready and waiting for what whatever can be thrown at it. In this sense, there isn't any other High Def player, HD DVD or Bluray that even comes close.

Bottom line though, it's a personal decision everyone has to make on their own.

[wbassett]

yourgrandma wrote:

I am getting an 805, but the PS3 is NOT capable of sending DTS MA. I've been getting conflicting answers to the question of whether it will send any 7.1 sound. It also does not allow for outboard processing (who cares).

Randy did you call Sony and ask them directly? Don't ask what it 'might' be able to do because they won't answer that, but if the question is 'can it do (this)' right now, they can answer that and they would be the definitive answer on the topic.

[yourgrandma]

Well there isn't really any doubt that it cannot decode DTS-MA right now. I thought about calling, but I doubt they have a que cars for that. If they plan on releasing a FW update, they won't say anything.

It would be interesting to hear what kind of answer I'd get, but I wouldn't know which one of Sony's numbers to call. Maybe a lunchtime experiment this week.

The internet concensus seems to be that there will be a firmware udate to add the ability, just like with SD DVD upconversion. Lets hope the internet starts being right.

In the meantime, I have yet to be impressed by the sound I've gotten from any of my BD movies. Below average even for Dolby Digital. I havent played with DTS core on House of 1000 Corpses, but Bob Zombie love his movies to have great sound. That one is in 7.1 DTS HD.

[wbassett]

yourgrandma wrote:

Well there isn't really any doubt that it cannot decode DTS-MA right now. I thought about calling, but I doubt they have a que cars for that. If they plan on releasing a FW update, they won't say anything.

It would be interesting to hear what kind of answer I'd get, but I wouldn't know which one of Sony's numbers to call. Maybe a lunchtime experiment this week.

The internet concensus seems to be that there will be a firmware udate to add the ability, just like with SD DVD upconversion. Lets hope the internet starts being right.

In the meantime, I have yet to be impressed by the sound I've gotten from any of my BD movies. Below average even for Dolby Digital. I havent played with DTS core on House of 1000 Corpses, but Bob Zombie love his movies to have great sound. That one is in 7.1 DTS HD.

I see this a lot in other forums I moderate/participate in- Sometimes there are questions about things and I see some of the 'answers' given and some answers really are pure speculation. (Not saying what you posted was speculation Randy, that was a generalized statement) The best way to wade through things is to call the source itself.

Randy I understand what you're saying about the first level help desk that people always get when they call, they rarely give any useful information, and yeah it's a joke when they have to look things up in their 'cook book' or cue cards. The thing is don't just call and stop there. Ask for a reply via email and any links the company has confirming what the equipment can or cannot do. I always ask to talk to a second level support person and make sure they understand what I am asking, and like I said I ask for any links to references. They will not answer any questions about future firmware updates or upcoming features added with any future firmware update so no need to even waste a breath on that.

Ironically the WORSE place to get any legitimate information is Sony's own forums, especially when it comes to the PS3.

As far as going to the source though, whether it's Sony or any company that you or anyone has a question, the best way to get an answer is to call.

I'm sure you've already seen this but for the benefit of others that may have the same questions:

Sony wrote:

The PLAYSTATION 3 system will support audio technology such as Dolby Digital 5.1 ch, DTS 5.1 ch, LPCM 7.1 ch, AAC, and others. (1*, 2*) To playback sound recorded on your DVD/software in Dolby Digital (AC-3) or DTS format to reproduce the effect of listening in a movie theater or concert hall, you must connect to audio equipment with the ability to decode DTS or Dolby Digital sound (sold separately). You must connect the component via the DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL) connector using an optical digital cable (sold separately).

To utilize the "DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL)" feature of the PLAYSTATION 3 system, you should plug in the "Video" connectors only (yellow if using Composite AV Cables; red, green and blue if using Component AV Cables). You should also disconnect the Left and Right Audio (white and red) connectors that may be installed into your television/stereo. Every setup can vary depending upon the make and model of your equipment, so there may be exceptions to this. One such example would be when you may be using an RFU adapter to relay the video and sound information to the television.

Configuring Audio Output Settings

The PLAYSTATION 3 system allows you to configure the audio output settings independent of the display output settings. You may need to make sure the correct audio out setting is selected for your installation.

1. To choose the audio output setting go to the Settings icon.
2. Navigate down to Sounds Settings and press X.
3. Navigate to Audio Output Settings and press X.
4. You will be then prompted to choose from "AV Multi Out port", "Digital Out (Optical)", or "HDMI." Highlight the output port of you setup and press the right direction button. If you choose "HDMI" go to step 5. If you choose "Digital Out (Optical)" go to step 6.
5. If you choose "HDMI", you will be given the option to choose "Automatic" or "Manual”.

   • Automatic: The PLAYSTATION 3 will automatically choose the method for setting the audio output format. Highlight "Automatic" and press the right direction button.
   • Manual: You are able to manually choose the audio output formats supported by your display or AV amplifier (receiver). Highlight the audio output option and press the "X" button on the option you wish to use and make sure the check box is checked. Once you are done, press the right direction button. If you are uncertain what to choose, please consult the manufacturer of your home theater equipment for additional assistance.

6. If you choose "Digital Out (Optical)," you will be give the option to select the output format supported by the display or AV amplifier (receiver). Highlight the options and press the "X" button and make sure the check box is checked. Once you are done, press the right direction button. If you are uncertain which options to choose please consult the manufacturer of your home theater equipment for additional assistance.
7. Once you are done, a summary of the audio outputs will be displayed. Press the "X" button to save this setting.
8. The audio output of the PLAYSTATION 3 system will now output audio from the port you have selected using the settings chosen.

Additionally, the audio output format for certain Blu-ray DiscsTM or DVD media may be specified depending on your display or AV amplifier(receiver). Go to "Settings" > "BD/DVD Settings". If the audio output is coming from the HDMI port, select "BD/DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI)". If audio output is coming from the Digital Optical Out port, select "BD/DVD Audio Output Format (Optical Digital)". You will be able to choose between "Bitstream" or "Linear PCM". Contact the manufacturer of your display or AV amplifier (receiver) to determine what your display or AV amplified (receiver) supports.

Footnotes

1* A device compatible with Linear PCM 7.1 Ch. is required to output 7.1 Ch. audio, supported by Dolby TrueHD or a similar format, from the HDMI OUT connector.

2* This system does not support output from the DTS-HD 7.1 Ch. DTS-HD 7.1 Ch. audio is output from a 5.1 or lower channel.

If this or any piece of gear doesn't meet a person's needs/requirements then find one that does that's all.
I honestly don't see the PS3 as a crippled device, but others may and if so that's perfectly understandable- if something doesn't meet their needs/wants/requirements it's not what they want... period. My HDTV doesn't support HDMI 1.3a, but I am not going to throw it it either when 1.3a is actually standard... the set will still display content and look great. Can it look better? Sure anything can but anything a person buys today will be outdated in six months or so. Unless you have unlimited disposable income, we all have to accept everything has some trade offs.

Seeing that some BD players from even as short as six months back may not even be able to make it to profile 2.0 and the PS3 definitely will, some of this is a moot point. It meets profile specs and will continue to meet them. The bottom line is if it's not in the profile specification it's not required for companies (Sony or any company) to include any additional decoding. If they do, excellent! If they chose not to, that doesn't mean the player is crippled. Crippled would be the original LG dual format player. (To some people, not having SACD is 'crippled' to them, but that's not a requirement to be able to do SACD. So it's not 'crippled', the device in question just doesn't do what that person wants)

I will bend what I just said a little... as far as I know it is not a requirement to upconvert SDVD, but seeing that all players do upconvert it was down right idiotic of Sony to not have that enabled on the PS3 when it first shipped. My personal opinion on that was they didn't want people buying the PS3 over their Flagship BD player even though ironically it may have been the PS3 sales numbers (as a game console) that ultimately saved Sony and Bluray- You'd think they'd treat the PS3 as their flagship player wouldn't you?

Last, from Blu-ray Disc.com's FAQs

Will PlayStation 3 play Blu-ray Disc movies?

Yes! PlayStation 3 is a fully functional Blu-ray Disc player, so you can watch, listen and enjoy your favorite high-def movies and music in full 1080p resolution and in as many as 7.1 channels of surround sound. Of course, that's in addition to having the industry's ultimate console for high-def gaming.

Granted there is definitely some bias on that site, but that is also to be expected... I just copied the FAQ as is and didn't edit or editorialize it...

The PS3 does work extremely well as a Bluray player, but to some the stigma of it being a game console lower's its appeal. The Panasonic BP-50 looks like a good player as well as some others out there. If a person has no desire for a media system, then a dedicated stand alone player makes sense, but when they are the same price and one does a bit more, it's a tough decision for some. Please don't take my posts as trying to force the PS3 on you or anyone. I do however think it is worth at least looking into, and if it doesn't meet a person's needs, at least they made an educated decision.

[yourgrandma]

Bill, that was a great post. The quote you posted pretty much sums it up, the only 7.1 audio it outputs is LPCM. It would just be nice to be able to use the extra two channels discreetly rather than having to apply post processing to get use from the rear (they cost a good deal of money, ya know). I think (hope anyway) that this is similar to when they didn't enable upconversion until after their other players had it.

What confuses me though is how they feel so secure people will buy a Sony player if they don't get a PS3.

You are also correct in stating that most of the back and forth is pure conjecture and based on little to no factual information. That's why I noted the wide range of statements. Anywhere from "no way, it's hardware related to HDMI", to "Without a doubt, it's just a matter of time".

If this one issue is resolved, I will whole heartedly endorse the PS3 as a BD player. If not, I would only recommend it to those not as scrupulous as I in the audio realm.

[wbassett]

Randy some of this post will be speculation on my part ... at least the fi