Bass Traps with style?

**bpape** · **01-31-07, 03:03 PM**

I'm game

Bryan

**Dain Bramaged** · **01-31-07, 09:22 PM**

“Keep in mind, the against the wall mounting is the least effective acoustically, and will do little to help the bass response” That’s definitely not what I wanted to hear, but thanks for letting me know.

“The plastic track isn't cheap, I think most places I looked were around $3-5/ft.” Ok. To make calculating easy, let’s figure 5$/ft. So to build a 2’ x 4’ panel I’d need 12 feet of channel. 12 x $5 = $60. Add to that, the sound deadening material, the cloth, and the time to build it. Does $100/panel sound reasonable ? So I’d have a $100 panel that works with higher frequencies. Well, that’s ½ the cost of one of Ethan’s traps, but it’s only doing half the job as well – so I’d still need to buy a GIK or RT panel to take care of the lower frequencies anyway. I appreciate the info, but I probably won’t be going that route after all.

Hey Glenn and Bryan - If you're looking for a road trip, I'll let you know when my HT is done, and ready for traps. You can stop by my place

**bpape** · **01-31-07, 09:40 PM**

The track system is great to cover large areas with cloth and then put treatment where needed behind it. To do individual panels using it, you're seeing that it will quickly add up to a ton of money. Doing an entire wall, you'd only use like 5' wide by 8' (height) tall in one pc. That would be about 26' of track to do 40 Sq Ft instead of the way you're planning where it would take about 4 times that much as individual panels. There's still the issue of bass control though.

When you're ready, give me a shout and we'll take a look. I do designs remotely every day - though a road trip to Minnesota sounds like fun - as long as it's not in the winter!

Bryan

**Dain Bramaged** · **01-31-07, 09:50 PM**

Oh come on ! You're no fun. It's only going to be a couple of degrees below zero this weekend !

What's wrong with that !?

**chas** · **01-31-07, 10:08 PM**

Quote:

It's only going to be a couple of degrees below zero this weekend !

Now come on Dain, don't paint such a rosy picture....they're calling for -18 this Sunday night here in the twin cities...colder up north. Bryan can wait til spring...unless he likes ice fishing.

**Glenn Kuras** · **02-01-07, 05:02 AM**

Quote:

bpape wrote:

I'm game

Bryan

Not sure if the company could support the BAR BILL!!

**bpape** · **02-01-07, 06:11 AM**

Nice - Glad to see I have friends!

Bryan

**Dain Bramaged** · **02-01-07, 07:16 AM**

Just tell him that the alcohol is a mandatory requirement to keep the blood thin enough so you don't freeze solid.

Works for me.

**Glenn Kuras** · **02-01-07, 07:29 AM**

Quote:

Dain Bramaged wrote:

Just tell him that the alcohol is a mandatory requirement to keep the blood thin enough so you don't freeze solid.

Works for me.

Anialcobloodfreeze????

**Ethan Winer** · **02-03-07, 01:09 PM**

Bob,

> Perhaps the place to start is at the point of sale for home theater equipment or speakers. <

I second everything Glenn said. But it's even worse than that. The main reason RealTraps doesn't sell much through stores and dealers is because they are usually even more clueless than their customers. They are also very greedy, and have a vested interest in keeping people unhappy with the sound of their systems. Think about it. They'll sell a rich doctor or lawyer a system for, say, $15,000. Eventually said rich customer will realize the sound is **** and harsh and boomy etc. So they go back to the store and the dealer tells them they need to buy a pair of $20K each speakers, or $5k speaker wires, or some other such nonsense, to get the excellent sound they want.

Now, I don't really believe it's a conspiracy as hinted at above. Again, most dealers are too ignorant about audio to understand that room treatment matters more than everything else including what speakers you use (within reason). And there are a very few dealers that do understand the importance of room treatment. But even really expensive treatment like ASC's $800 tube traps don't earn them as much commission as a $20k power amp. Wires earn them even more commission because wires costs pennies per foot to make and can sell for markups of hundreds of times that. So there's no incentive for audio sales people to actually help their customers get the best sound possible.

Pathetic isn't it?

--Ethan

PS: To be clear, ALL audio salesman are not ignorant buffoons. I do deal with a few who are very knowledgeable. One guy in particular doesn't sell our stuff because it's not worth it to him, but he sends us a lot of referrals because he really does want his customers to get the best sound they can.

**Dain Bramaged** · **02-03-07, 02:31 PM**

Ethan, I don’t think your observations could be any more exact. But you know, those types of comments/ideas would be a great angle for advertising. You could have a basic advertising campaign that followed a “Don’t spend good money for bad upgrading your equipment. Buy Real Traps instead at a fraction of the cost.” type of approach.

Or, here’s something else to consider. Work with the various speaker and sub manufacturers to promote your products. In there advertising blurbs, they could say something like “Even though our Raz-A-Mataz Hyper Turbo Elite subwoofer sounds great all by itself, we recommend Real Traps acoustical treatments to bring out all the wonderful sound our subwoofer is capable of”. They in turn could re-sell your products and make a little more profit for themselves, while at the same time being more of a 1 stop business. Or they could just re-badge your products to their own name.

Over simplified ideas, but maybe some food for thought.

**Bob_99** · **02-03-07, 02:56 PM**

Ethan,

You brought up some interesting points which never came to my mind. I guess my view is too simplistic and demonstrates why I'm not in sales. Dain brings up a good point and I wonder if manufacturers would be interested in the buyer getting the best sound from the speaker(s) they just bought. It would be to their benefit to mention room treatment since they probably make a good product and would have a vested interest in the buyer not setting it up in a bad environment making the product perform inefficiently. Honestly, if I hadn't stumbled across some of your articles, I never would have gone beyond simply putting speakers in a room.

Bob

**LewisCobb** · **02-03-07, 04:10 PM**

Just came across this thread and am feeling pretty good with myself. Seems I am in this elite 1% of the home theater consumers that is focusing on the quality of the sound and realizes it can never be achieved through tossing more and more money at just equipment. Heck, I have been trying to draw up my home theater for months in Sketchup and make allowances for all sorts of acoustic treatments if/when needed and I have yet to even darken the door of an audio shop to look at equipment !

Carry on fellows - but with me you are preaching to the converted already.

**basementjack** · **02-03-07, 08:48 PM**

I'm amazed at how many people shell out $$$ for monster cable and other fancy wire, yet do nothing with room acoustics. especially with tools like REW available - you can measure a $5 radio shack cable and $100 fancy cable, and see no difference - yet the audiophiles will argue that they hear a difference.

The flip side of that is that you can take 2 in room measurements with REW - one before and one after adding acoustic treatments, and clearly see the results. And we're not talking about a ton of money either!

I found a stereo shop once that told me cables were ** and that what radio shack sold was just as good as the fancy $300 cables. Unfortunately for them, I listened, and they went out of business.

I guess they could have used the $297 to pay rent...

**bpape** · **02-03-07, 08:59 PM**

That's so true. A lot of what shops carry isn't that high a margin. I know when I used to run a shop, some things were low and some were high.

High profit items:

Cartridges
Cassette Tapes
Speakers
Cheap car stereos

Low margin items:
Good electronics
Good car stereo

Unfortunately, what we sold most of were the low margin items. The high margin ones are not the same raw $ amount to make up. Hard to keep stock, good salesmen by paying good commisions, etc. - and oh by the way, still make a profit.

Bryan

**basementjack** · **02-03-07, 09:05 PM**

I'm really surprised more shops didn't try and make their own panels and sell them to customers - that way margins would be high - and if you've ever run a shop - you know there's plenty of free time on your hands to assemble things.

**bpape** · **02-03-07, 09:54 PM**

Sure, just a matter of keeping the stock to make them quickly and having the space to keep the stock and build the panels. Most don't want to hassle with the fiberglass.

Bryan

**cyberbri** · **02-04-07, 12:15 AM**

As far as the looks of the panels go, you can always do what I did. I got panels from GIK and put fabric over them. Probably not the best fabric. But It blends nicely in my room (see http://www.flickr.com/photos/6850963...57594507788330 ).

**Ethan Winer** · **02-05-07, 04:14 PM**

Bob and DB,

> It would be to their benefit to mention room treatment since they probably make a good product and would have a vested interest in the buyer not setting it up in a bad environment <

Yes, and speaker makers seem to get this more than most other companies and vendors. In fact, that's how I got my SVS subwoofer. SVS came to us for enough bass traps to treat two hotel suites, and we traded them a PB12-Plus/2 for five of the 22 MiniTraps.

Likewise, another speaker vendor recently invited me to give a show & tell at his local audiophile club. He had bought a number of traps from us for his demo room, and wanted others to hear and understand why room treatment is so important.

But most of the stores, even really high end stores, remain clueless.

--Ethan

**Dain Bramaged** · **02-05-07, 07:31 PM**

I haven't seen anything on the SVS website about acoustic treatment, so I take it they weren't interested in any kind of joint business venture. Was their reason the same as most of the others - not enough margin ?

**shaolin95** · **02-05-07, 08:10 PM**

I just put 4 bags of R-13 in each front corner of my room and used 2 of the GIK 244 panels at first reflection points and the difference is great! I know my room needs much more work (the smaller the room the worst) but since I am moving I will wait before getting the Tritraps. All I can tell people thinking about room treatments is do it! By controling the bass issues the mids and highs in my room come across so much cleaner and detailed.
Heck, I have a cd that was very hard to listen to due to the excess of reverb used when mastering but by cleaning the reflections its now much better.

Regards

**cyberbri** · **02-05-07, 08:22 PM**

Yes, the difference is staggering, ain't it? Much better, and even measurable, than most tweaks, or even equipment upgrades, that cost much more. If you don't treat the room, the equipment can't perform to its potential.

The 244s are thicker than the 224s and may be overkill for side reflections. But if you do decide to use them there, try to put a little space between them and the walls so both sides of the panel, front and back, can be used to absorb bass.

**shaolin95** · **02-05-07, 08:26 PM**

Yeah, I didnt buy the 244 for side reflections specifically I ended up using them for that in the meantime since I got this friend that told me I could get as many r-13 as I wanted (I will give them back when I move more than likely).
I did leave some space for that as well...using REW its amazing how small changes in the room can affect frequency response.
Regards

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