Fixing accoustics in living room..Unrealistic?

[nick72]

Hi everyone!

I live in an "open concept" style condo where the living room and dining area have no wall between them, and that also opens up to the kitchen as well. It all adds up to ~3800 cu ft of area.

Obviously, I enjoy listening to music and watching movies in the living room, but since I moved in, I've been frustrated by the acoustics of the room. Detail is simply not there and bass is also lacking (noticed in music mostly)...especially in the mid/upper-bass.

I changed my front speakers to the admirably rated Ascend Acoustics CBM-170's with a CMT-340 center, expecting a huge improvement from my previous Klipsch Quintets, but noticed, for the most part, improved dynamics. Not much improvement, if any in mid/upper-bass and in detail.
I continue to use a Klipsch KSW-10 subwoofer, and was considering replacing that too, but with the lack of much change when replacing the fronts, I'm not so sure that will help much anymore.

After some investigation, I figured out that the issue is likely primarily the fault of the room itself.

I played around with RoomEQ Wizard, which has helped me with the bass to some extent, but the response is pretty uneven, especially between 100 and 200 Hz that I can't do anything about (not without room treatment anyway).

I tried the famous "clap" test, which returned significant echo (ringing?).

So I looked into familiarizing myself on how to treat a room and into some room treatment options on the Net...

This undertaking left me quite disheartened.

While room treatment would work great in a "downstairs" room or music studio (both of which I don't have), in a living room it does not seem realistic to try this as it would significantly impact the aesthetics of the room. Some corners can't even be treated anyway (closet, etc...).

Being concerned with aesthetics, I was wondering if there is really anything that could be done to my living room to tame it? Is it hopeless? Do I have to just live with it?

If it's of any help, here a rough drawing of my problem room along with some outputs from RoomEQ Wizard 4.0 that might be helpful (I hope)...

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks

[bpape]

The first thing I'd consider is moving your seating. Sitting against a wall is going to give you all sorts of problems.

As for treating the room, it's not hopeless. Yes, treatments are somewhat large but don't have to be ugly by any stretch. Creative arrays and orientation of treatments, careful selection of cloth, etc. can make them actually look like part of the decoration.

Are you going to get it perfect? Probably not. That's a tough room, very out of symmetry, etc. But, you can certainly really improve things.

As for the sub, I'd agree it likely needs to be replaced. That's a large space for that sub to try to fill. Something like an HSU VTF3 MkIII or an ACI Titanwould have a much better shot. But to a certain extent you're correct. Until you fix the seating issues and tame the decay times down low, a bigger/better sub is not going to be noticed as much nor is the impact of the bottom end of the Ascends as it's being masked by very long ringing in the low frequencies.

Bryan

[nick72]

Hi Bryan..

The first thing I'd consider is moving your seating. Sitting against a wall is going to give you all sorts of problems

Being a living room, options for changing around seating might be a little difficult.

Assuming that seating can't modified, do you have any suggestions for treatment?
Would something like a TRI-Trap behind the couch on floor, help at all (should be relatively invisible to any company).
Would I need to cover the back wall with panels?

As for the sub, I'd agree it likely needs to be replaced. That's a large space for that sub to try to fill. Something like an HSU VTF3 MkIII or an ACI Titanwould have a much better shot.

As odd as it sounds with the apparent size of the room, space is also an issue in the living area. That HSU sub is huge on floor space. I was actually looking more at something like an SVS 25-31 PCi powered cylinder, although it will probably be more visible in the room. Can't have everything I suppose.

Nectarios

[bpape]

Another option for the sub is to get two smaller ones. ACI makes a killer smaller sub that's very good - especially for it's size. It's the Force. 2 of those would help fill the room, stay out of the way, and allow you to get one of them closer to the seating for more impact.

For the seating, what I was asking is to pull the couch out so your ears are at least 2' from the wall - 3' would be better but we take what we can get.

Based on the potential for the above 2 things, I'd be happy to make a recommendation for specific products.

Realistically, you don't have much in the way of vertical corners to play with and the upper horizontal ones will be out for aesthetic reasons. Right side can't be done since the left side is in the dining room and I assum that is a no-no.

So, that leaves the floor behind the couch and behind the speakers (the corners), the front wall, the rear wall, and the ceiling.

Bryan

[nick72]

Hi Bpape!

Ok, since my last comments, I have added an area rug to the living room and this appears to have made a noticable difference in the room sound.

The sonic difference is sufficient that this has given me confidence that improving the sound of my living room is not quite as hopeless as I thought and am now actually seriously considering panels.

I have also made up my mind and will be going for a HSU sub to replace the Klipsch KSW-10 that's sitting in the corner.

For the seating, what I was asking is to pull the couch out so your ears are at least 2' from the wall - 3' would be better but we take what we can get.

Hmm...I measured two feet into the room from the back wall. Moving the couch forward by that much would look quite awkward for a living room. I don't see how this would be possible here. A few inches could be possible though.
This being the case, would placing panels on the rear wall be innefective, or would there need to be more and/or thicker panels on the back wall to compensate for my closeness to the back wall? Would more or thicker panels create new issues such as make the back wall sound dead (though I admit, I'm not sure if this is really a bad thing, since my ultimate goal is to get music detail back and improve bass and the 100-200+ Hz response in my room)?

Realistically, you don't have much in the way of vertical corners to play with and the upper horizontal ones will be out for aesthetic reasons. Right side can't be done since the left side is in the dining room and I assum that is a no-no.

Yes, this is pretty much my analysis as well.

So, that leaves the floor behind the couch and behind the speakers (the corners), the front wall, the rear wall, and the ceiling.

When you say, "Behind the speakers", do you mean the rear surrounds? Should I worry too much about them since they seem to be only really noticeable on occassion in movies?

Many thanks for your help...

[bpape]

Hi Nick

When I was referring to the speakers, I meant the mains. There are a variety of reasons for this, not the least of which is that they'll be less obtrusive - but there are performance reasons also.

As for the seating, what I'm asking for is 17" from the back of the bottom of the couch to the trim. People get all hung up about seating having to be against a wall because they've always done it that way. It took me a while to convince my wife about this in our living room - now it's just part of how she likes it. You have the walkway.

Try it for a week.

If it won't fly, then we can still maybe do something on the wall behind the seating to help minimize the large bass issues that will exist.

Bryan

[nick72]

As for the seating, what I'm asking for is 17" from the back of the bottom of the couch to the trim. People get all hung up about seating having to be against a wall because they've always done it that way. It took me a while to convince my wife about this in our living room - now it's just part of how she likes it. You have the walkway.

Try it for a week.

Ok..I moved the couch forward as described. We'll see how it goes for the next little while.
I'll take new readings with Room EQ Wizard when I get a chance to see what has changed on the chart (if any)..

I'll let you know what happens..

While I'm at it, is there anything special that I should be testing/measuring with REW that could assist in analyzing my room's response to help in the future to determine correct solutions to address the room issues?

Thanks!

[bpape]

You can certainly take basic measurements with the mic at the seated head position. You can also play with measurements to allow you to better place speakers and sub to smooth response.

Bryan

[jr1414]

Not sure what you have for window treatments, but some absorbing window treatments can take away unwanted reflections and add immeasurably to intelligibility of dialogue (in movie soundtracks, TV broadcast, even in vocals). I would highly recommend a drape over the patio door (I'm assuming they're glass) and the windows.

I've started playing with a similar concept in my room and I learn more each and every day.

Bryan is an invaluable source, and a fantastic source of information. Thanks again for all of your help.

Good luck with your room. I'm sure you'll make some noticeable improvements!