My first maggies - need some advice

[mdrake]

Well, I did it…….. I bought my first pair of maggies the MMG W’s; which are now being used as my mains with my custom subwoofer “EBS alignment or SST as some call it”. My goal is to have a complete Magnepan HT room. Overall, the sound is AMAZING, but I do notice a little bit of an edge or harshness from the MMG W’s. I am going to run some measurements on them to see where it is coming from but for surrounds they should be great. Now for the questions: Do I get the MMGC or spend the extra money and get the CC3? Is there really that much difference between the speakers? As for the mains, I am really torn between the MC1 and the MMG 12. I like the idea of wall mounting but if the MG12’are that much better then I can forgo the wall mounting. Also, I am using an Onkyo 805 to power the speakers. The whole setup will be in a dedicated room 13 by 16 feet home theatre. I would really appreciate any advice you can throw my way.

Matt

[Sonnie]

Hi Matt and welcome to the Shack!

I don't believe we have that many Maggie users hangin' around, so I am not sure how much response you will get.

Sounds like you are headed for a nice system though. We have the 805 in our great room and it has faired us well thus far. I seriously considered the Maggies before planned on building the huge entertainment center that we built.

Maybe someone will chime in.

[darwin]

Since I'm a Maggie fanatic, maybe I can be of some help, or at least muddy the water for you a bit.
I currently have Maggie 3.6Rs and a CC3 center in the front and 1.6QRs as surrounds. I also have a pair of MC1s that I use in my bedroom. I've been waiting patiently for over a year for Magnepan to release their new true ribbon center speaker, at which point my CC3 will get back speaker duty.
I strongly recommend that you spend the extra money and get the CC3 center. It will be a much better match sonically for either the MC1s or the MG12s. Plus, it will give you some room for upgrading should you decide to go with larger Maggies like the 1.6QRs at some point.
If I had a dedicated room the size of yours, I would opt for the MG12s with a CC3 as the center. I would probably forego the MMG-Ws altogether and use the MG12s as surrounds also, since I listen to multichannel music quite a bit. The MC1s sound very good, and wall mounting is certainly a plus, but about the only way to find out which speaker is going to suit you best is to audition them at a Maggie dealer or a Maggie owners home. No speaker should ever be purchased blindly, but this is particularly true for Maggies.
My only concern with your setup is your receiver and it's ability to handle a 4 Ohm load. I'm not familiar with the Onkyo 805 and it may be fine powering the speakers at normal listening levels, but you may have issues if you like things loud. You may want to contact Onkyo customer service and ask them how well the 805 will handle 4 Ohm loads.

[Otto]

Hey there,

It's been a long time since I've owned Maggies, but I did enjoy them. I used the MMGs for my L/R fronts. It was at the beginning of Home Theater (for me at least, around 1999 probably).

The main thing I recall, and it echoes what was said above, is that they like a lot of power. I was using a Denon receiver, and it wasn't really enough. I upgraded to an Audio Alchemy OM150, and things were a lot better. Like darwin, I'm not sure of the capability of your receiver to push the 4 ohm load, so you may have enough. However, if it were me, I'd feel much more comfortable with something like 200 WPC on Maggies.

FWIW, the MMGs that I was using never felt like they had quite the dynamics for me. If I were to do it again, I'd opt for the biggest ones I could afford and fit in the room. I'm not all up on the models as of today, but check out whatever fits your budget and space.

Good luck and have fun!

[topgun]

I ran Magnepan MG-IIB's in my home theater/audio setup for awhile last semester and heres some things I learned from my experience with Maggies. They need to be away from the walls (at least mine did), get them far away as possible, and there was a very defined sweet spot to sit (limited room size was my killer), and it was definitely noticeable when you were in it.

I have heard of people not liking the MMG's as much as the bigger higher end Maggies, just something about them that didn't do them justice. I haven't personally heard them, but I have heard it from several people who have heard the MMG's.

I powered mine with a QSC Powerlight 1.0HV rack amp, and it used all the power that it had if I decided to crank it up some (it still had plenty of power to blow the fuses). They certainly do love gobs of power, they are rather inefficient.

I was just running a 15" subwoofer for quite awhile, then I got around to going to dual 15's in stereo bass crossed over at around 80Hz if I remember correctly. The stereo bass crossed over higher made them come alive, I enjoyed the sound a lot more once I got both woofers in there. My recommendations for any maggie owner that can do it is stereo bass crossed over as high as you can, it'll make them come alive.

I'd suggest getting as big of Maggies as you can, if you don't have to buy new used ones can be picked up for rather cheap now. Mine are an early '80's model, they were factory reconditioned in the late '90's and I got them shipped to me for 325$. *They are in pretty decent condition too*

My rule of thumb on Maggies is you need to have as much power as you can on tap, get them away from the walls, stereo bass if you can, then sit back and grin ear to ear as you listen to them.

There a little more mud in the water for you now, hope there was one little tidbit of helpful info in there for you.

[superchad]

Former Maggie owner here...........
I would suggest you buy the Internet direct $300 center channel and see how it works for you, I ran one for 2 years and never felt I needed more, the CC3 is a lot more cash for only 20 extra HZ, the budget center goes down to 100HZ and the expensive CC3 does 80HZ if I recall correctly.
I ran mine with a Parasound amp, 200watts used can be had for around $500 and they are a high current line that can handle all but the loudest full range Maggies.
Space behind them as others noted is really, really critical and if you cant pull them out far you need to atleast break up the backwave with odd shaped items behind speaker, like diffuser panels.
If I can be of any help contact me anytime..............good luck!

[reed.hannebaum]

Well congratulations on becoming a Maggie owner! I am also pretty new to the world of Magnepan, though I have coveted Maggies for many years. I recently bought a pair of MG12's (7 months old) from a guy who graciously invited me to audition them along-side his MG3.5's. He was driving them with a SimAudio W-5, so there was plenty of power available. For a couple of hours we listen to a wide variety of music (both his and mine) and I was extremely impressed with the sound. The MG12's kept up with the MG3.5's in every way except bass extension.

I brought the 12's home and hooked them up to my Yamaha RX-V1400 and spent the next several hours listening and moving around everything in the room. As others have noted these speakers need to be positioned well away from the back wall. When I finally got everything setup right they sounded glorious; thought I still am tweaking speaker placement. My only problem is a lack of power. At low to moderate listening levels the Yamaha does a fine job but there is some compression in the dynamic response, especially at higher listening levels. This was not an issue when I auditioned them.

As others have mentioned, I would highly recommend an amp with plenty of power. I would also add that since rapid transient response is one of the stellar features of Maggies, you should get an amp with a high slew rate in order to do them justice. Superchad recommended a Parasound amp which would be an excellent choice.

Depending on your room and music taste, you may find the MG12's too bright. If so the MG12's have an attenuator you can plug in that will tame the high frequencies.

Since I am using them in a 2 channel setup, the small sweet spot is not a major issue for me. But even outside the sweet spot the Maggies still sound good.

I also have an HT set up with some good front speakers. Since the 2 channel room and the HT room are adjoining and are sourced from the same receiver, I can go back and forth to compare the sound. While I am extremely pleased with the sound of my vented box speakers, the Maggies have a unique and wonderful sound all to themselves.

[mdrake]

WOW guys thanks for all the GREAT advice!!! I went to Monterey CA a couple of months ago to audition Maggies. The shop was in a remodel state so I all go to hear where the 3.6’s which where awesome but there MC1’s and 1.6’s and CC3 where unavailable for a demo so I am planning a return trip to audition more Maggies.  The 805 has preouts and I was planning on adding another amp down the road but a half to do it in small steps or my better half will kill me.  She has been a good sport and loves the looks of the Maggies. Do the MG 12’s or MC1’s one need more power than the MMG W’s? The 805 pushes the little Maggies pretty well but not sure how much more she has left in her power wise.

Another question that just popped up was the option of using MC1’s as a phantom center channel. Does anyone have any thoughts on this setup? Sorry for all the questions, but there are so many options that it is getting confusing; fun but confusing.

[superchad]

Phantom may be tough with this particular speaker technology, as long as you dont have folks sitting off axis, when people are in various areas around the room it may be less than ideal as they have limited horizontal dispersion but if its just you and wifey and you cuddle it may be ok....and alot of fun!
For $300 I would get the center from Magnepan direct, if you dont like it you will be able to sell it for maybe a $25 or so loss so its not really risky............I really liked mine!

[darwin]

mdrake wrote:

Do the MG 12’s or MC1’s one need more power than the MMG W’s?

Another question that just popped up was the option of using MC1’s as a phantom center channel. Does anyone have any thoughts on this setup? Sorry for all the questions, but there are so many options that it is getting confusing; fun but confusing.

The MG12s or the MC1s will require more power. They are both two-way speakers with quasi-ribbons, whereas the MMG-W and MMGC are one-way and lack the quasi-ribbons. In my experience the MMGC didn't blend very well with the MC1s or the 1.6QRs, but you may not find it to be the same for you in your room.

I currently have a pair of MC1s in my bedroom without a center speaker and it works very well for me. Although, I only use them for watching television and lying in bed is the only listening position. Since you are trying to complete your setup in stages anyway give the phantom center arrangement a try, then pick up a center speaker as your budget and wife allow.

I went through nearly the same as you, working up in stages, and taking my wife to speaker auditions. We've managed to go through every speaker that Magnepan currently makes, with the exception of the 20.1Rs. I'm working on the wife for a pair of those, but it's going to take quite some time to wear her down and get her to an audition.

[mdrake]

Sonnie
I could get a second set of MC1's as the center on either side of the screen. That would mean 4 MC1's across the front of the room which might look strange. I like the idea of getting the wife closer though, maybe I should use the 2 without the center.

Darwin
How do your MC1's compare to the your 1.6QRs is there a huge difference in sound or is more of a subtle difference? Getting the wife to go for the 1.6's is going to be a harder sell than the MC1's. Wow, if you can get your wife to buy off on the 20.1R's you are going to have to let me in on your secret.

Matt

[mdrake]

Not sure what would cause this but I took some measurements and a have a 12db null at 134 hz. The sub and Maggies are crossed over at 100hz. Anyone have any idea as to the cause of the null?

Matt

[darwin]

mdrake wrote:

Darwin
How do your MC1's compare to the your 1.6QRs is there a huge difference in sound or is more of a subtle difference? Getting the wife to go for the 1.6's is going to be a harder sell than the MC1's. Wow, if you can get your wife to buy off on the 20.1R's you are going to have to let me in on your secret.

Matt

There's really no secret to it. One just needs to be patient and be willing to make sacrifices, like giving up all dignity and self respect by whining continually for a year or more. It isn't very pretty for a man of my age, but it usually works.
I also have an advantage in that my wife loves the looks of the larger Maggies and although she doesn't care about the technical aspects in the least, she does appreciate the much improved sound.

The 1.6s will go lower than the MC1s and they will also provide more detail. Quantifying the difference between the two is a bit difficult, but there is a fairly substantial difference between the two models. However, with a room the size of yours placement may be an issue with the 1.6s and some type of room treatment will probably be required at some point.
The MC1s would also be a big step up from your MMG-Ws and present fewer issues with placement. Either way you go, the speakers will need to be augmented with a good subwoofer.

[tonyvdb]

darwin wrote:

My only concern with your setup is your receiver and it's ability to handle a 4 Ohm load. I'm not familiar with the Onkyo 805 and it may be fine powering the speakers at normal listening levels, but you may have issues if you like things loud. You may want to contact Onkyo customer service and ask them how well the 805 will handle 4 Ohm loads.

The Onkyo 805 is THX Ultra2 certified and is rated down to 3.2 ohms so no issue with it powering them.

[mdrake]

I was hoping you would say the MC1's sounded just as good as the twice as expensive 1.6's.

The Onkyo 805 is THX Ultra2 certified and is rated down to 3.2 ohms so no issue with it powering them.

How dangerous it is to run the 4 ohm maggies on the 6> setting rather than the 4 ohm setting? I like the idea of 270 watts vs. 151.

[tonyvdb]

mdrake wrote:

How dangerous it is to run the 4 ohm maggies on the 6> setting rather than the 4 ohm setting? I like the idea of 270 watts vs. 151.

As with any speaker you would run into heat issues if you did. 150watts at 4ohms that should be plenty of power. I dont think running a 4ohm speaker like the Maggies in 6ohm mode is a good idea as they are a tough speaker to drive at the best of times.

[Anthony]

I'll chime in here, as I have had a Maggie HT for a while:

First, make sure your amp does 4 Ohms. There are plenty out there that can. My maggies have eaten 2 amps already (both 6 Ohm rated). Thankfully the repair of the one (Marantz SR-18 was only $300 and I am now using it as a preamp for an Outlaw 1050).

I do love Magnepans for the light airy sound. However, they do lack in some areas. For reference, I have the MG10.1's as fronts and the MGMC1's as surrounds. No center. Dipole sub at 80 Hz.

Center image is firm at a very narrow sweet spot. This is a panel problem in general. While they are dipoles, the panel causes a "finger" pattern to emerge with alternating lobes of peaks and nulls (picture the heel of your hand being the speaker, the fingers represent the peaks and the gaps the nulls). If you toe in the speakers and sit in the exact middle, you get a phenomenal sound. If you are off center and are in the second peak of one, but the null of another, the soundstage collapses to the first speaker. This can be a big problem for the phantom center channel.

Because of this, I don't think your idea of using MC1's as a center would work. You would still have the lobing issue for non sweet spot seating locations, which is contrary to the point of a center channel speaker in the first place.

If you do get a center, I would recommend the CC3. I've heard it, it is great and doesn't need any fancy bass distribution like the CC2, and has much better off-axis performance. However it is a bit pricey. That cost is what got me into looking at building my own dipole center channel.

Another problem: dynamic range. Maggies sing light and airy and vocals/dialog are almost in-your-room realistic. But they don't do explosions, gunshots, or car engines well. Granted my experience ends with the MG12's, so the larger panels may be better at this.

I am not talking about frequency response either, obviously much of this content is at the subwoofer, but every once in a while I hear something that sounded constrained like it wanted to be louder, but just didn't get there. The explanation is simple physics. Since the speaker is just a big tensioned panel, the larger the excursion, the farther away the wires are from the magnet and the more restoring force is applied by the tension. So slams sort of peter out before they have a chance.

One redeeming factor here is that it is a very soft clip. Maggies do not introduce harsh distortion when they reach their dynamic limit, which is why despite this limitation, I have been very happy with my theater setup for several years now. Contrast this to cone speakers that sound almost dreadful when a cone bottoms out. Yikes!


So don't take this a full on negative review, the dialog and musical scores are breathtaking. Just know the limitations. Have plenty of power, and get that center channel!

Good luck and enjoy!

Anthony

[mdrake]

Thanks Anthony for the very detailed reply that is VERY helpful to say the least. I love the light airy vocals of the Magnepans. I have heard the compliant about dynamic range from other reviewers. What exactly are people talking about when they say the Maggies are lacking in dynamic range?

I was thinking of waiting tell the new ribbon center is out and then pick up a used CC3 from someone upgrading. I heard they Magnepan was showing off some new speakers at CES that have a new midrange panel. I am trying to get more info on the new line but to no avail. Here is a link to Magnepan CES pictures.
http://live.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/ces...ew&&&&&&&THE08

[Anthony]

No problem, glad to help.

First off, lack of dynamic range pretty much means that if an explosion is supposed to make 120dB of sound at say 200 to 800 Hz, the Magnepans can only do 100dB, it will sound as though they were holding something back. I made those numbers up, I have no idea what the actual dB limits are for the various models.

The good news, though, is the soft clip. In the same scenario, a mid-woofer that was at the edge of its dynamic range would start to distort. At first it would just be like the magnepans, and it would lose force as the cone tried to move farther from the voice coil. But in extreme cases, the "pull in" of the cone actually bottoms out against the structure -- massive distortion, almost painful to listen to. Plus you get thermal issues with that kind of power dissipation and weird forces on the cone. It can get nasty.

The Maggies only do that gentle soft clip, so while the range gets limited, it never sounds harsh. The only exception is some of the big panels (older models usually) could in theory slap against the magnet structure and create a buzz. I have NEVER heard this in 1.6's, MG12, 10.1, or the MC1s -- but I have read about it.

Good move on waiting on the CC3. CC1 and CC2 prices dropped substantially when the CC3 came out.

Oh, and Magnepan is notorious for being slow with press releases, website updates, and the like. The owner(s) personally approve all those changes and only do that when they feel it's necessary. So many people were awaiting the CC3 for so long that when it was finally released, most had given up checking the site

[mdrake]

Thanks for the explanation of dynamic range! Now that you explained it I did notice I had to bump up the volume of the THX demo to get the correct effect. I have not pushed the MMGW’s to there max yet, so I think I might wait on testing the soft clip effect.

Just got off the phone with Magnepan marketing and the new model that was seen at CES is an upgrade of an MC1 with a new midrange panel and a Quasi Ribbon Supper Tweeter. The rep told me it will have both better highs and midrange than a 1.6 but will have much less bass due to the on wall mounting. They are releasing a complimenting woofer that goes down to 40hz. They are in production now and will be shipping in approximately. 3 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cost on them is 1,500 a pair and 900 for the sub. This should be exciting!!! I got so excited about the speakers I forgot to ask about the ribbon center channel.

Matt

[superchad]

Wow Magnepan is doing a sub now?! The Vandersteen subs work fantastic with Maggies so it will be interesting to see what their sub does.

[mdrake]

I am a little upset. I put a scope on the maggies and they start to roll off at 400hz and then do a really drastic drop at 200hz. They are advertised as 100hz and up. I guess I should give them a call and see what is going on.

Matt