Timbre matching...only important for music?

**E-A-G-L-E-S** · **04-01-08, 09:57 PM**

I am in a transitional period with a hodge podge of speakers currently.
I have always read how important timbre matching is for at least the front stage.
I have noticed no ill effects of having different brand L&R's and center.
Now, I almost always listen to music in 2.1, but all tv programming and BR movies utilize all seven speakers.
I watched No Country for Old Men again last night on BR and I noticed no ill effects from the different speakers.

So is it either:
A. Am I correct in now believing it isn't a big deal?
--OR--
B. My hearing is so cruddy and that is why I don't hear any audible issues?

The reason I ask is that since I haven't noticed any problems, if I could stop trying to find a timbre matched center and go with the best center I can afford since it is 'SO' dominant in movies?

**Kal Rubinson** · **04-01-08, 10:20 PM**

Quote:

E-A-G-L-E-S wrote:

I watched No Country for Old Men again last night on BR and I noticed no ill effects from the different speakers.

As posted elsewhere, you are not likely to notice any ill effects unless you can compare it with a matched system. If you do, you may or may not hear a significant difference.

**superchad** · **04-02-08, 12:50 AM**

I also think the entire matched system is an over-blown "requirment", I have had 2 matched systems and several variations of front only matched and even seperate fronts and center from dynamic, to Planar, to even Electrostat systems I have owned and in all but 1 case there was no real difference. Even in my current system with matched fronts and center and 4 matched surrounds from seperate company I can notice no ill effects in SACD or DVD-A let alone HT. Either I am very lucky or it simply is not always as needed as many suggest. I firmly suspect it is the latter.

**nova** · **04-02-08, 03:57 AM**

And now that I think about it,...I've never had an unmatched system. Come to think of it, I've even had a matching sub in all but maybe 4 systems. Might be worth mixing and matching just to see what kind of difference I can discern.

**jakewash** · **04-02-08, 05:29 AM**

I did have mismatched speakers at one time but of inferior quality and it drove me nuts for HT. I am of the mindset that most quality speakers will blend quite nicely as most are quite clear in their presentations and not muddy sounding.

**eugovector** · **04-02-08, 07:14 AM**

I use this simple experiment to illustrate the need for matched fronts, at the least. Using the AVIA disc, play one of the 5-channel sweeps. on most unmatched systems, you can clearly hear the "blob" of sound transitioning between speakers. With a matched system (especially 5 identical speakers), the sound moves smoothly in a circle.

This is also a great way to setup you soundstage and adjust the level of tilt in you center, using it is above/below you TV, and not behind an AT screen.

**E-A-G-L-E-S** · **04-02-08, 09:33 AM**

Quote:

eugovector wrote:

I use this simple experiment to illustrate the need for matched fronts, at the least. Using the AVIA disc, play one of the 5-channel sweeps. on most unmatched systems, you can clearly hear the "blob" of sound transitioning between speakers. With a matched system (especially 5 identical speakers), the sound moves smoothly in a circle.

This is also a great way to setup you soundstage and adjust the level of tilt in you center, using it is above/below you TV, and not behind an AT screen.

I will try this, as that would be a great test.
If I do not notice any ill-effects I think I may just buy the best center I can afford and try to keep the tweeters of the same design at least to aide in fidelity.

**imbeaujp** · **04-02-08, 09:48 AM**

Hello I have 5 identical speakers (NS-1000) and even with that, it is difficult to achive timbre matching because the speaker timber depends on the environement where the speaker is. All the 5 speakers are in the same room (of course) but they are not in the same corner. Each corner have a particular environement and reflexion.

JP

**eugovector** · **04-02-08, 09:59 AM**

Quote:

imbeaujp wrote:

Hello I have 5 identical speakers (NS-1000) and even with that, it is difficult to achive timbre matching because the speaker timber depends on the environement where the speaker is. All the 5 speakers are in the same room (of course) but they are not in the same corner. Each corner have a particular environement and reflexion.

JP

Yeah, corners and walls can do crazy things. Best to get speakers out of corners and a few feet away from walls if possible.

**E-A-G-L-E-S** · **04-02-08, 10:16 AM**

So some hear differences and some don't, inbcluding people who have had timbre matched in the past but not currently.
Could this depend on hearing ability? I do have verified hearing loss, could that play a part?

**eugovector** · **04-02-08, 10:49 AM**

Depending on where your hearing loss is, you may be down a couple dB in the frequency range where there is a difference between different speakers. So it can certainly make a difference.

Mostly I think people that don't mind mis-matched speakers fall into three general groups...

1) There is a negligible difference in their mismatched speakers, in other words, they are practically matched despite being different. Or, there are problems in their listening environment that mask the differences, like high reverb times.

2) They attribute the effects to something other than mismatched speakers, "that left to right pan didn't sound very smooth...the sound must have been mixed poorly."

3) They just don't know what to listen for.

**E-A-G-L-E-S** · **04-02-08, 11:03 AM**

Makes sense:
1. Could be the case here.
2. I personally would hear if there was something blatantly wrong with a panned audio. Or at leat I think I would.
3. Ignorance is bliss. Wish I had it for video, where every bit of diiference or variation from a calibrated display is a horrible annoyance to me.

O.K., so considering that the mis-matched center I'm using will be gone saturday(sold, along with L&R and surrounds) and it sounded good mixed and is from another brand even, should I:
1. Buy the best center from the same brand as my new towers?
2. Try to find a center from any brand that has the same tweeter and midrange drivers?
***One thing of note is that the "matching" center from the new towers brand is only a 2-way and I want 'at least' a 3-way center.

Thanks for the help guys!

**superchad** · **04-02-08, 06:32 PM**

Eagle, what speakers are in your system?

**imbeaujp** · **04-03-08, 03:40 AM**

Yes, on my oppinion having the same tweeter and mid is a good thing for a center channel. The center channel is as important as the L and R channel in a HT system. Technically, it should handle more power than the L or R channel, but for many this channel is set to small so the bass is redirected to the sub/lfe channel.

**shoester5** · **04-07-08, 02:56 PM**

IMO, I believe all the speakers in your setup should be timbre matched. I have had systems in the past that weren't timbre match (just thrown together) and was never very happy with the sound.

I have now spent a lot of time and money to timbre match (tweeters, crossovers) my speakers and believe me it will make a difference. Either music or film it makes a big difference.

Eric

**nitrox1** · **05-17-08, 08:32 PM**

I dont think timbre matching is all that important if your AVR has crossover setting adjustments, Ive used lots of different speakers in different places in my HT and find that as long as they are capable of handling the power put to them you can achieve good sound. Also setting all the speakers to the small setting also puts them in step with each other if you do not have the crossover capability. One thing I would say is that if you have horns try to use horns all around.

**Warpdrv** · **05-20-08, 05:11 PM**

Personally unless your trying to save money, I think timbre matching is a good thing, it really pulls the front 3 together for a seamless stage like it should be. The rears IMO are not as important.

I used to have a miss matched front, before I knew anything about HT. I was always messing around trying to figure out what was wrong with my setup and constantly adjusting my center channel and trying to switch surround modes to get the voices right or the material right, when the whole time it was my awful center... I will never put up with that again....

My first real system I bought at the beginning of last year, and it truly made me appreciate how sweet it is to have everything just right, pretty much perfect - the way it should be... It really makes one appreciate what all the fuss is about.

First setup was Paradigm Studio 100's, cc 690, and 20's for the great room, and I went on to make up my bedroom system with Paradigm Sig S4's, C3, ADP's. I can truly say its really effortless integrating properly matched speakers.

**Kal Rubinson** · **05-20-08, 07:27 PM**

Quote:

nitrox1 wrote:

I dont think timbre matching is all that important if your AVR has crossover setting adjustments, Ive used lots of different speakers in different places in my HT and find that as long as they are capable of handling the power put to them you can achieve good sound. Also setting all the speakers to the small setting also puts them in step with each other if you do not have the crossover capability. One thing I would say is that if you have horns try to use horns all around.

Wow! I use speakers as closely matched as I can and recently have been using 5 identical Canton Vento Refs. Even so, there are discernible differences among them when tested with pink noise. This is undoubtedly due to the different acoustical situations that each is in. I shudder to think how different really different speakers will be and how poorly they will image. (Of course, you could argue that, in view of those observations, timbre-matching is pointless but my additional experience has shown me that all efforts at matching are rewarded with better imaging.)

Kal

**nitrox1** · **05-20-08, 09:11 PM**

Hi Kal,
Sometimes I think that speaker placement is more important than the actual timbre matching. Each speaker in a set up will have it's own set of acoustical challenges not only internally but externally, when you take all the component parts that make up a HT and the environment in which it will perform, the chances are that 100% nirvana will not be achieved. I take great pains to place each speakers distance, height, angle and tilt if necessary. When you get all those factors dialed in for your particular theater the image can be fantastic. If you can scare yourself once in a while with the way it sounds during a movie than you have done something right.

**Kal Rubinson** · **05-20-08, 10:03 PM**

Quote:

nitrox1 wrote:

Hi Kal,
Sometimes I think that speaker placement is more important than the actual timbre matching. Each speaker in a set up will have it's own set of acoustical challenges not only internally but externally, when you take all the component parts that make up a HT and the environment in which it will perform, the chances are that 100% nirvana will not be achieved. I take great pains to place each speakers distance, height, angle and tilt if necessary. When you get all those factors dialed in for your particular theater the image can be fantastic. If you can scare yourself once in a while with the way it sounds during a movie than you have done something right.

True but, imho, they are complementary: correct placement and timbre-matching.

Kal

**lcaillo** · **05-20-08, 10:28 PM**

Quote:

nitrox1 wrote:

Hi Kal,
Sometimes I think that speaker placement is more important than the actual timbre matching. Each speaker in a set up will have it's own set of acoustical challenges not only internally but externally, when you take all the component parts that make up a HT and the environment in which it will perform, the chances are that 100% nirvana will not be achieved. I take great pains to place each speakers distance, height, angle and tilt if necessary. When you get all those factors dialed in for your particular theater the image can be fantastic. If you can scare yourself once in a while with the way it sounds during a movie than you have done something right.

While it is hard to argue with the importance of placement, matching is a matter that is underestimated by most people until they actually experience it. You can get the placement perfect with poorly matched speakers and never get what you could out of the reverse case, properly matched speakers with less than perfect placement.

**mdrake** · **05-20-08, 10:35 PM**

Quote:

While it is hard to argue with the importance of placement, matching is a matter that is underestimated by most people until they actually experience it. You can get the placement perfect with poorly matched speakers and never get what you could out of the reverse case, properly matched speakers with less than perfect placement.

I agree 100%!!!!! I have Maggie fronts and surrounds but a conventional center and I can tell that the center does not match. When it is turned off or a pillow placed over it the sound is SO much nicer!! I have heard many a surround sound system but an all matching Maggie sound is something YOU must experience before you die.

Matt

**Warpdrv** · **05-20-08, 10:55 PM**

Hey Kal... thanks for stopping by the Shack....

Great review of the Canton Vento Reference 9 DC.... for those who haven't read it.... http://stereophile.com/musicintheround/308mitr/

Curious if you are still using the Bel Canto Ref 1000 amps with your B&W 802D's...?

**nitrox1** · **05-21-08, 08:16 AM**

Hi Kal,
You can also get 5 to 7 times the problem depending on system you own, not to mention the sub. A good HT is created by trial and error, it really cannot come out of a box. I guess before the term timbre matching was coined everyone had terrible sounding systems. Sometimes speakers can complement each other by adding another layer of acoustical depth by the fact that they are different. It's another tool in the box maybe no more or less important than all the rest. I wish you pleasing sound all around.

**bobgpsr** · **05-21-08, 08:44 AM**

What I found out when, a few years back, I went to using JBL "E" series all around (except the sub) for a 7.1 system, was that the speakers "disappeared" like they really should. No channel drew attention to itself. IMHO matching the tweeters and the upper midrange is important. Middle midrange and lower seems to be greatly affected by placement in the listening room and reflections.

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