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Long term listening test / Floorstanding speakers

21K views 87 replies 19 participants last post by  Peter Loeser 
#1 · (Edited)
Greetings - I have decided it's time to have fun in the world of testing out products, and this time, it's going to be in floorstanding speakers.

As of now, we have a pair of Klipsch LaScalas and a pair of Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrid Electrostats, with a pair of Axiom M100's and a pair of M50's on order.

The Klipsch retail for $7000 per pair, and are quite the revealing loudspeaker. Those who have not heard a pair of Klipschorns or LaScalas are missing out on something special.

Sam Tellig, famed audio critic, tested the LaScalas here: Sam likes him some LaScalas

The Martin Logans can be found here: Martin Logan Electromotion ESL

The Axioms will be delivered at a later date, and we will start discussion at that point.

The first speaker "up" will be my spending several weeks listening to the Martin Logans in a simple two channel set up.

The front end is a Denon Universal player with a Marantz 7008 receiver. All processing is turned off. No subwoofer is being used. It's just a straight, two channel set up.

The reason I finally selected the Marantz is it delivers 148 WPC into 8 ohms and 216 WPC into 4 ohms, as measured by Sound and Vision here: Bench Test on Marantz 7008.

In addition, the Marantz has preouts on all channels, and for later tests has full Audyssey XT-32 processing with sub eq which can independently eq two subwoofers.

It also allows one to bypass Audyssey on the mains, should one wish to have a sub in one's system, properly eq'ed, but without processing in the Left/Right speakers.

All speakers being tested are being purchased by me, no manufacturers "giving" free product for evaluation. I have contacted several manufacturers, and am waiting on responses for other speakers to be added over the next few months.

I will do the best I can to convey to relative "sound qualities" of each loudspeaker. More later, as some serious listening will start this week.

Speakers by Brand and Model, including post numbers where one can find them:

1. Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrid's can be found in posts #4, 5 and 6
2. Axiom M50 can be found in posts #39, 40 and 41
3. Axiom M100 can be found in posts #43, 44 and 45
4. Legacy Audio Signature SE can be found in posts 46, 47 and 48

These notes will take place over the next 3 to 4 months, and the reason for the dedicated three pages per speaker is to allow an easy place for the summary notes on each speaker. There will also be the more frequent updates throughout the thread. Hopefully, this will work for both the occasional reader and the more avid forum members.
 
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#60 ·
Jim - I have this on the bottom of the first post, which allows for three posts of notes/pictures per speaker. I was going to do a link to a post, but it would only bring up one individual post if done this way. Hope this makes sense. :)

Speakers by Brand and Model, including post numbers where one can find them:

1. Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrid's can be found in posts #4, 5 and 6
2. Axiom M50 can be found in posts #39, 40 and 41
3. Axiom M100 can be found in posts #43, 44 and 45
4. Legacy Audio Signature SE can be found in posts 46, 47 and 48
 
#61 ·
Since all of them aren't consecutive posts I can see where it might be confusing for some folks. Given that, you would probably have to add a link to each of those posts for people to easily follow.
 
#62 ·
Guys - The Legacy Signatures have been burning in Since Thursday night. I did some light listening today, and some fairly quick comparisons to the M100's. Both speakers have that "large, powerful, deep" speaker sound, and it's going to be fun doing some comparisons between the two.

Over the next few days, we will be getting some pictures of all four speakers lined up, so you know we really have them here, and then some comparative listening will be done between different models.

All four speakers are good, accurate reproducers of sound, with the M50's being the biggest surprise of the bunch.
 
#65 ·
Carlo - it's in three pieces, and magnetic. It looks "old school cool" in person ... there is a hint of 70's era JBL in the M100's.

The Legacy Signatures and M100's are in the system now, and some comparative listening will be done over the next 2 weeks, then the Martin Logans and M50's will be swapped in.

This is, of course, when I am not working or golfing. It is summer. :bigsmile:
 
#66 ·
Thanks to Legacy's test disc, level matching was pretty easy between the Signature SE's and the M100's. The Signature SE's are actually 2 dB more "efficient" than are the M100's, even though both are rated at 88 dB / one watt / one meter (more accurately 2.83 Volts), and both are 4 ohm speakers.

Soundstage measured the M100's at 87.5 dB, so the Legacy Signature SE's are a bit higher than rated.

Neither is a difficult speaker to drive - the Marantz receiver on its own plays either much louder than I can stand listening to, no worries there. The Marantz also changes volume in 0.5 dB increments, so level matching is easy. I can now swap between speakers in about 30 seconds.

Give it a few days, and I will try to have some comparison notes between them. For now, both are such good speakers, and a step up from everything I have had here but the LaScalas, in terms of clarity.
 
#68 ·
AU26 ... This was actually part of the plan. By the time this process is done, it will Autumn here. At that time, a new thread will be opened, and all the pertinent information on each speaker will be compiled in this thread in an easy to read format.

This will be about the time people north of the equator are thinking about being inside all winter. :)
 
#70 ·
Blacklightning - I will try to get some more pictures done over the next week.

I also noticed that the forum will not allow editing of posts once they pass one month old. This will make it impossible to do the write ups as originally planned, but that's not that big of an issue. When we get to October, which will happen sooner than I care to think, a new thread will be opened with copy/pastes of all the details as posted here.
 
#73 ·
Charlie - This is a lot of fun, but my kids would tell you it's too much work here. :eek:lddude:

I finally got some notes up about the Legacy Signature SE's, too.

Tonight I did some back and forth between the Legacy's and the Axiom M100's. While both are excellent speakers, there are some differences between them that would definitely bring "preference" into play.

On several tracks - from Amanda Rubarth, Michael Stanley "live and unplugged", Pink Floyd and Dire Straits. One trait between the two is starting to take shape ... The Legacy's sound is more "in the studio" while the M100's sound is more "live on stage". With the Legacy's, it's easier to pick the sounds as coming from the speakers, while the Axioms tend to disappear more and give that "wall of sound" of a live performance. On the other hand, the Legacy's tend to be a little more articulate in the mids - just as a studio performance would sound versus a stage performance.

As of tonight, both speakers have about 80 hours of break in. It will be interesting to continue to explore these differences as the speakers get to the 200 hour mark for break in.
 
#74 ·
Good morning - It's time for another update. Over the last few days, a lot of listening has been done between the Legacy's and the Axiom M100's.

The music tracks involved have been quite the variety from the Legacy Disc, Uriah Heep Live (1973 - a really cool disc), Diana Krall Live from Paris DVD, Michael Stanley Live From Tangiers CD: link, Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (of course), Steely Dan's 2 Against Nature and Aja and a compilation of Mozart.

Both the M100's and the Signature SE's make for some excellent listening. This trait mentioned earlier of the M100's sounding more like the performers were on stage while the Legacy's sound more like the recording studio has become more than a possible trait - it's something even casual listeners are noticing.

In 1988, I purchased the Legacy Model 1's from Bill Dudleston. Back then, when a call was made to Legacy, Bill answered the phone. He was genuinely excited about his loudspeakers, selling them direct to the consumer. He offered an in home trial period LONG before other companies thought of this.

Moving 27 years into the future, when emailing Legacy, Bill answered, and we had a terrific conversation. He had a passion for music, and for making accurate speakers in 1988 and he still does.

The Signature SE's remind me a lot of the Infinity IRS Sigmas (a $10,000 per pair speaker 15 years ago), but with the ability to handle macrodynamics much better than the IRS did. The IRS Sigmas had a hard time with making music that "rocked the house" even with a McIntosh MA-6900 powering them. The Signature SE's will play louder than I can stand even with the Marantz receiver.

Bass is deep and tight, vocals are crystal clear, and imaging is precise. Every instrument comes through the Legacy's sounding like the instrument should.

In contrast to the Signature SE's, the Axioms give up a little in how clear the vocals are, and the bass is not quite as deep. The Axioms DO deliver a wider and deeper soundstage - and bring this whole experience of "listening to the performance on stage" to life.

For example, on the "playground scene" from The WALL ... where the guy is threatening no pudding if one does not eat one's meat, the Axioms place the children in the background outside the side walls (there is a joke in there somewhere), where the Legacy's have the children coming from the speakers.

On Amanda Rubarth's Novocaine, each lyric is amazingly clear on the Legacy's, while the Axioms require more of one's attention. The Axioms have more depth and width of sound stage, which again extended outside the speakers.

The Michael Stanley Live at Tangiers disc has become a standard bearer over the last couple of weeks, and both speaker pairs were "doing their thing" while switching back and forth.

The Legacy's were intimate, making one want a scotch and a cigar. The Axioms were "live", making one want to give a dirty look to the moron three rows back thinking it was ok to fire up a joint.

Both speakers can handle pretty much anything you throw at them, and there will be more details coming after more listening sessions. The next experiment is going to be blocking a port or three on the Axioms to see what effect this has in the bass department.
 
#75 ·
This might sound surprising coming from the techie guy that I am, but I really enjoy the descriptions of the FEELING you get when listening to the different speakers. Ultimately that is what we listen for, not to objectify the sound.

But you can keep the cigar, pass me the scotch, and well, let the guy in the back light up, because I am listening to the Axioms...we were impressed when we evaluated them. The did have that magic that lets you get lost in the performance.
 
#76 ·
LC - The tech side is what makes the magic side happen. And speaking of your tech side, we are working on something special here: I am getting a quote to build for me a customer switcher which will work at the pre-amp level.

What will happen is there will be a 4 channel amp receiving dual stereo signals from the switcher ... A and B for speaker pair one and C and D for speaker pair 2.

AB and CD will each have its own volume on the back of the switcher. This would allow us to switch back and forth with level matched output from each speaker pair.

Add into this a screen made of speaker cloth that the speakers are behind, and we will be able to do some excellent blind tests here.
 
#79 ·
The LaScalas have been here since August, 2014. They are in a different room - on the main level of the house. Sometime this fall, if there is interest, I could lug the M100's up to this room to do some comparisons between the two speakers directly.

The LaScalas are an incredibly capable speaker, except for bass. They really need a subwoofer. That caveat aside, they are detailed, musical, and present a huge soundstage.
 
#80 ·
It's time for a quick update - The last few days have been really hectic. My "day job" is working finance in the auto industry, and the end of the month is crazy, thus the lack of posts.

Saturday was a rainy mess here, so I took the time to dial in an Axiom EP-800 subwoofer with the Legacy's and M100's. After playing around, a crossover of 60 Hz was set for both speakers.

The effect is remarkable - one thing I noticed about the EP-800 is how easy it is to integrate into a music system.

By removing the bass below 60 Hz (and keeping in mind, this crossover means both the subwoofer and speakers are down 3 dB at 60 Hz, with a 12 dB per octave roll off - not a brick wall) from the main speakers and the amp section of the Marantz, the improvement in soundstage is noticeable, as is detail in every respect.

The bass quality in the EP-800 is the best I have heard, and this includes some very fine subwoofer systems from JL Audio, Velodyne and a host of ID companies, including our own. There will be more on this later, as more listening is done.

For now - either the Legacy's (and I am sure Bill's subwoofers would have a similar effect) or the Axiom's combined with the EP-800 enter into "super speaker" territory in terms of delivering the goods.
 
#81 ·
Good morning all - It has been an incredibly busy week since the last update. The busy has been mostly business related with some bad golf thrown into the mix.

There has been little time for listening, but the listening sessions are still confirming that these are two remarkable loudspeaker systems. The level of detail is astonishing on both, as is that rare "musicality" that we all seek.

This is the first time in years that I have had speakers that make me want to get out old discs and order new ones. They both remind me why I loved stereo sound for so long.

The "BIG" news is ... the switcher has been ordered. Before long, we will be able to do blind tests with remote control operated switching. Level matching will be done at the pre-amp level.

I don't think any magazine outside Soundstage has this ability. This fall and winter will see a lot more done, as indoor season lends itself to this.

We will be adding two more pairs of speakers to testing in the fall - starting in October. If anyone has a suggestion .. or even wants to start a new thread with a poll, feel free.

I would also love to have a small GTG style weekend with maybe 3 listeners to do some serious blind A/B testing. If there is enough interest, we could do 3 or 4 of these from November to April.
 
#83 ·
A quick update: I have received the pre amp level switch box. It's a pretty simple hook up. The system will be using 4 channels of an Axiom ADA-1000-5 amplifier. The box will allow for level matching, and instant A/B switching.

In regards to the four pairs of loudspeakers here, all are incredibly capable speakers, with the Axiom M100 impressing the most in terms of being as good a speaker from 32 Hz and up as I have heard. It compares favorably with the Legacy's, B&W Diamond 803's, Infinity IRS-Sigmas, Klipsch LaScala II ... and does so for less than half the price of any of those speakers.

As we move into fall, this whole test will be revisited, but under blind conditions.
 
#85 ·
The switcher was custom built for me, using the same parts that Bryston and Axiom (plus some other companies) are using at their respective facilities. I got the opportunity to use one at Axiom in both April and last week, and did so doing some blind tests. The NRC in Canada has long championed this type of blind listening.

What was fascinating about the methodology for the tests I did was I had no idea what speakers were being auditioned. The speakers were set up, level matched, and I went into the listening room alone. No one else was in the room. No one could clue me into which speakers I was listening to.

The results - notes and all - had to be turned in before the speakers were revealed.

This unit is compact enough that it would be "doable" for me to bring it and the Axiom amp to a GTG to do such a test ... or we could use any amp as long as we have 4 identical channels.
 
#86 ·
The results - notes and all - had to be turned in before the speakers were revealed.
That's the way to do it IMO. Did you pass??????? I have an inexpensive switch with individual volume controls that I'm planning to use for some less sophisticated speaker and amp A/B tests... when I have time. I'm curious to see the results of yours.
 
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