3 Way or 2 Way???

[salvasol]

Is there any advantage on using three ways over two ways???

I been reading speaker specifications and comparing, and if understand correctly the advantage is that the sound will be clear in a three way because a woofer won't have to produce a lot of the frequencies (for example on a two way the woofer will have to play from 50Hz to probably 3KHz ... and in a three way the same woofer probably will play only up to 600Hz).

Another question that I have is: Is there any disadvantage when mixing three ways and two ways in a system???

I ask because my front speakers are three ways, and the center and surrounds are two ways ... I'm planning to replace the center with a three way; this will leave just the surrounds. Is it worth it to replace all surrounds with three ways too??? ... What about using four ways as surrounds???

I wish that I have the space to use similar speakers everytwhere ... but like most of us "space is limited"

[eugovector]

I'm totally out of my league here, so please line up to correct me...

Conventional wisdom has it that yes, a well designed 3-way will outperform a 2 way for the reasons you specified. The downsides are that the 3-way has a more complicated crossover and an additional interaction point where, if not properly designed, things can go wrong. They're also more expensive to make, typically.

Now on the subject of a 2-way center. A mid-tweeter-mid in a horizontal array can have problems. The two mid/woofers can interact in a way known as horizontal lobing that, as you move left right off axis, can created nulls and peaks in the frequency response skewing performance for those sitting off dead center. I googled, but couldn't find a good explanation of this effect. Anyone else?

Found one: http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs

[avaserfi]

salvasol wrote:

I been reading speaker specifications and comparing, and if understand correctly the advantage is that the sound will be clear in a three way because a woofer won't have to produce a lot of the frequencies (for example on a two way the woofer will have to play from 50Hz to probably 3KHz ... and in a three way the same woofer probably will play only up to 600Hz).

Removing frequencies from a drivers passband does not mean it will become more accurate. This is entirely dependant on driver choice. For example if a two way loudspeaker has properly chosen drivers it can be sufficiently dynamic if crossed over with a sub at say 80Hz while maintaining good off axis response. Now there are a few areas three way speakers have potential to be superior primarily in mid bass dynamics if dual or larger low frequency drivers are used and midrange off axis response presuming a high quality smaller midrange driver is used. That being said without proper measurements of specific loudspeakers it would be hard to tell which would be superior.

Another question that I have is: Is there any disadvantage when mixing three ways and two ways in a system???

It isn't a big deal. Ideally, one would have all the same speakers around, but surrounds are typically used to ambient sound so it isn't as important to have them fully capable as it is with mains and a center.

Now on the subject of a 2-way center. A mid-tweeter-mid in a horizontal array can have problems. The two mid/woofers can interact in a way known as horizontal lobing that, as you move left right off axis, can created nulls and peaks in the frequency response skewing performance for those sitting off dead center. I googled, but couldn't find a good explanation of this effect. Anyone else?

Found one: http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs

Common MTM centers do have the problems shown in the article linked. I actually know the author and have discussed it with him in person a few times. That being said there is an older more useful reading found here if one is wanting to build a horizontal MTM design that does not have such issues or look for a commercial design that would minimize them. Please note the linked article does not focus on horizontal designs, but the information offered can be applied to an horizontal MTM.

The questions become what are your goals and intended use for these new speakers? Are you wanting to build some yourself or purchase a commercially built unit? Either way what is your intended budget?

[DougMac]

I agree with Marshall. I'm assuming you're staying in the same family of speakers. If so, mixing 2 way and three way speakers should not be a problem.

I think there needs to be some clarification regarding the center. Marshall mentioned a problem with 2 way, 3 driver centers. I just wanted to make sure you're planning on a true 3 way center. It's only two drivers covering the same frequency range that present the problem.

Based on my experience, there's some truth to the article posted by Marshall. I have a MTM center. It sounds much better in vertical orientation, especially off axis. My wife even commented on it. I think she hears as well as I do, but she's a more casual listener (she's not like me). It the difference was enough for her to comment on it, I regard it as significant.

Doug

[salvasol]

Thank you for the responses

I have JBL Venue Stadiums (L+R), JBL Venue Voice (which has been discussed in the JBL Owners thread in AVS forum as the weakest link in that line) and Polk M10 as surrounds (that completes my 7.2 set up).

Venue voice will be replaced by JBL SCenterII which is a better match for the Stadiums, I want to change the Polk M10 with either of this: JBL L810 , JBL L30 , JBL S38II , JBL S36II or maybe the JBL L820 (which is a 4 way, so I'm not sure).

My objective is to have a better interaction between speakers (if that's the case using all 3 ways instead of mixing 2 and 3 ways) ... if there's not a big improvement, maybe I'll just keep my set up.

Money is always an issue (specially with this economy ) ... so, if I upgrade the speakers I will do it one pair at a time (I'm already dealing the SCenter on ebay, there's also a pair of S38II's)

Another question: L810 and L830 are 3 ways, and crossover are 3.5KHz & 20KHz and 2.5KHz & 20KHz ... so, is there any benefit on using this??? ... I like the S36II and S38II because their crossover are 650Hz & 3KHz and 800Hz & 3200KHz.

Which one will blend better with Stadiums and SCenterII???

[eugovector]

You can't really say one speaker that crosses over at point A is any better than one that crosses over at point B, or that, universally, 2-ways are better than 3 ways (except maybe with the center channels, as described). These variables all work together wit the over all speaker design, with no one being inherently better than the other.

Also, a 3 way will not necessarily timbre match better than a 2 way. Keeping everything from the same series, using the same components (and, ideally, the same speakers) is the best way to timbre match.

But yeah, that JBL voice center is weak.

I'm always checking out older JBL Studio Series. I want to pick up one more pair, or even a single 310II to use eventualy as a center channel, but those are hard to come by. I know exactly the S38ii and S-centerii that you're stalking, I won't bid against you

If I were you, I'd try to get the S38II for surround, unless you are planning on wall mounting. In that case, go with the 36. Those are pretty scare, so if you're really itching, anything from the new studio L series should work well enough for surrounds.

[salvasol]

eugovector wrote:

... I know exactly the S38ii and S-centerii that you're stalking, I won't bid against you

You better

There's a couple of ScenterII right now, but I choose one seller because is close to me and I can pick up the speaker instead of waiting for the mail

... If I were you, I'd try to get the S38II for surround, unless you are planning on wall mounting. In that case, go with the 36. Those are pretty scare, so if you're really itching, anything from the new studio L series should work well enough for surrounds.

Yest they will be wall mounted (probably I will use a shelf for the sides, right now I'm using brackets with the M10's).

Ahh, decisions, decisions, decisions .... upgraditis, upgraditis, upgraditis

[looneybomber]

Here's my .02 about 3way vs 2way.

Speaking purely stereotypes (because there's always exceptions)

3ways will...
-Handle more power
-Play louder with less distortion
-Cost more
-Take up more room
-Be more difficult to design.

salvasol wrote:

Another question: L810 and L830 are 3 ways, and crossover are 3.5KHz & 20KHz and 2.5KHz & 20KHz ... so, is there any benefit on using this??? ... I like the S36II and S38II because their crossover are 650Hz & 3KHz and 800Hz & 3200KHz.

Which one will blend better with Stadiums and SCenterII???

There's no way for me to answer which one will sound "better" but I can say, there's no reason a speaker should have a XO point of 20khz! Was that a typo?

[eugovector]

looneybomber wrote:

There's no way for me to answer which one will sound "better" but I can say, there's no reason a speaker should have a XO point of 20khz! Was that a typo?

The JBL Studio L series incorporates a super tweeter providing for frequency response up to 40KHz.

[looneybomber]

eugovector wrote:

The JBL Studio L series incorporates a super tweeter providing for frequency response up to 40KHz.

Oh, that's useful...for dogs and bats.
So it's a 2-way with a super(fulous) tweeter, hence the 3khz XO point.

[salvasol]

looneybomber wrote:

Oh, that's useful...for dogs and bats.
So it's a 2-way with a super(fulous) tweeter, hence the 3khz XO point.

Now you see my point when I said that I prefer S38II and S36II

I can use the super-tweeter ... but only if is not used to atract bats

[MikeL]

I was once strictly a 3 way guy, thinking that it was better. However, a 3 way cannot match the coherence that a 2 way has. Listen to a lot of speaker companies 3 way vs. 2 ways in the same series. I think that many would prefer the 2 ways.

[eugovector]

looneybomber wrote:

Oh, that's useful...for dogs and bats.
So it's a 2-way with a super(fulous) tweeter, hence the 3khz XO point.

Well, I haven't heard the super tweeter, and you'd certainly need material that had frequencies in that range, but in theory, I don't consider it any more superfluous than subwoofers that go down to 10HZ. You can feel 30KHZ in a tactile way the same way you can 10HZ. But, once again, you need source material and an AVR that would support those as well (most AVRs will).

[looneybomber]

eugovector wrote:

Well, I haven't heard the super tweeter, and you'd certainly need material that had frequencies in that range, but in theory, I don't consider it any more superfluous than subwoofers that go down to 10HZ. You can feel 30KHZ in a tactile way the same way you can 10HZ. But, once again, you need source material and an AVR that would support those as well (most AVRs will).

I completely disagree with 30khz resembling anything with tactile feeling. The reason you can feel 10hz is because with lots of high displacement drivers and kilowatts of power, a lot of air can be compressed. Upwards of 30-40L in some IB's. At 30khz, air is not being compressed by a 1/2" tweeter not even 1cc. There is nothing to feel nor hear. It's beyond the capability of humans to preceive, which is why ultrasonic (ultra sound) machines can be used so frequently without any ill effects. It's a sales gimmick, much like directional speaker wire.

[Ricci]

Gotta agree with looneybomber here. There's nothing superfluous about a subwoofer system with powerful 10hz output. Once you experience it, you easily notice when it's not there watching the same material on other systems. M&C, WOTW's, Cloverfield, etc, just aren't the same. I doubt that adding or removing 30khz material would have the same effect. I've never experienced anything tactile in the treble range even at 10khz and I've been to some of the loudest concerts and auto shows around.

[eugovector]

I didn't choose to use the word superfluous, only responded back to looneybombers use in reference to the super tweeters. I don't think 10HZ is superfluous, but I'm not going to presume that 30HZ is either, without hearing it.

Here's a review from someone who has: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/spe...l?print_page=y

I can't access JBL.com from work, but I'd wager they have a white paper on the usage of UHF in their speaker designs if anyone cares to read up on it.

[eugovector]

Ricci wrote:

I've never experienced anything tactile in the treble range even at 10khz and I've been to some of the loudest concerts and auto shows around.

...and I'm not pointing fingers, but the super loud concerts and auto shows can't be helping. I hope you are wearing your earplugs. Mom-style lecture over.

[salvasol]

eugovector wrote:

I know exactly the S38ii and S-centerii that you're stalking, I won't bid against you

I won one on ebay ... I'm thinking that maybe I can use the ScenterII as surrounds too

FR is 75Hz-20KHz, that's enough because I'm using 80Hz crossover ... maybe I can even go 70Hz

Will see if I can grabe some more (there's one Scenter on AVS, and I recall that I saw another on ebay; but I can't find it anymore ; that will be a perfect pair to replace my surrounds )

[looneybomber]

salvasol wrote:

I won one on ebay ... I'm thinking that maybe I can use the ScenterII as surrounds too

FR is 75Hz-20KHz, that's enough because I'm using 80Hz crossover ... maybe I can even go 70Hz

Will see if I can grabe some more (there's one Scenter on AVS, and I recall that I saw another on ebay; but I can't find it anymore ; that will be a perfect pair to replace my surrounds )

Patience is golden.

[Ricci]

eugovector wrote:

...and I'm not pointing fingers, but the super loud concerts and auto shows can't be helping. I hope you are wearing your earplugs. Mom-style lecture over.

Yes I do. I'm usually involved with live music 3 or more days a week, so I have to wear hearing protection. Every once in a while I do slack though.

[salvasol]

looneybomber wrote:

Patience is golden.

Yeah, I know ... but is so hard

There's been a change of plans ... again .

This morning I found a pair of JBL S36II ... so, those are the ones in my waiting list instead of the SCtrII

[salvasol]

eugovector wrote:

... I want to pick up one more pair, or even a single 310II to use eventualy as a center channel,

There's a pair of S312II for sale ... in case that you haven't read the post Post 3795 here

[eugovector]

Yep, saw those. I want to stick with 310ii so I have identical speakers across the front (have s38ii center now).

[Raymond Leggs]

There are no real benefeits of a 2 way over a 3 way speaker if the crossover is a 2-way crossover exept there may be a little more bass output if there ate two woofers, but when it comes to center speakers those woofers tend to suck the life out of the tweeter.