Dipole phase question

**Tidan** · **10-27-08, 03:53 PM**

Hi,
Paradigm's new ADP-590 dipoles are no longer side specific as noted in another thread here - or rather are not labeled as such. So, you end up with one side speaker that is in phase facing the front/main speakers and the other side speaker that is out of phase facing the front/main speakers. Paradigm says this doesn't matter, but my avia test DVD begs to differ. So, after rewiring one of the 1500.00 dollar dipoles to mirror the other, I now have a left and right.....
Problem is I don't know which is left or right - i.e. which side of a dipole should face the front and which side should face the rear, beit the in-phase side or the out-of-phase side?!?

Does anyone know how dipoles should be oriented or has anyone come up with another viable solution to this issue with the ADP-590's? I know paradigm says it doesn't matter, but it sure sounds different the way I have it now, and avia shows everything as being in phase properly now.

Thanks for any suggestions you guys might have!

**salvasol** · **10-27-08, 04:37 PM**

Sorry I don't have an answer to your question ....

I just want to say Welcome to the forum ...

... and somebody will help you with what you need

**Tidan** · **10-27-08, 07:22 PM**

Quote:

salvasol wrote:

Sorry I don't have an answer to your question ....

I just want to say Welcome to the forum ...

... and somebody will help you with what you need

Thanks for the greeting! I hope someone has an answer to this question. I understand it may be a bit over the heads of most people.

BTW, I used to race DH bikes in Fontana! LOL!

**jakewash** · **10-28-08, 01:37 PM**

You said sounds way different, is it better or worse or just different? Have you tried them flipped so the opposing speaker sets are then to the front and does it sound better this way?

**Tidan** · **10-28-08, 03:50 PM**

Quote:

jakewash wrote:

You said sounds way different, is it better or worse or just different? Have you tried them flipped so the opposing speaker sets are then to the front and does it sound better this way?

I listened to them for two days with them in their stock configuration, i.e. not mirrored and right side up. Then I switched the wiring in one speaker to make the rear tweeter/mid the front and vice-versa and have listened for two more days. As to which sounds better I think the post wire mod sounds better - but it could be somewhat mental I suppose. Some material just doesn't sound very good period while other material sounds decent with a few things sounding actually better than my monopole setup.

I didn't turn one upside down as I have read they were not designed to work this way and one person reported having problems with the casing seperating upon doing this. Besides, I've essentially done the same thing in switching the front and back wiring (note: I did NOT reverse polarity from what it was, I only moved/reconnected wires that read 'front' to 'rear', not positive to negative).

**JCD** · **10-28-08, 07:34 PM**

Interesting question... and unfortunately, one that I don't have an answer for. As with salvasol, I hope you get someone to chime in.

Odd that Paradigm gave you the answer they did. Your answer makes sense assuming it's a push/pull system (not sure if that's the right terminolgy). However, if the side drivers are both pushing out and in at the same time, then it wouldn't make sense that there should be an issue about phase as long as the speakers were the same distance from the listener.

JCD

**Prof.** · **10-29-08, 06:09 PM**

Dipole speakers usually have the forward firing driver in phase with the front speakers..and the back one out of phase..

You can test this by connecting a small AA battery to the speaker terminals and just make the connection to the battery briefly while watching which way the cones move..
The in phase speaker cone will move in a forward direction and the out of phase cone in a backward direction..

Hope that helps..

**Tidan** · **10-29-08, 10:13 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

Dipole speakers usually have the forward firing driver in phase with the front speakers..and the back one out of phase..

You can test this by connecting a small AA battery to the speaker terminals and just make the connection to the battery briefly while watching which way the cones move..
The in phase speaker cone will move in a forward direction and the out of phase cone in a backward direction..

Hope that helps..

Thanks for the tip! Will doing this hurt the cross over or anything?

**Prof.** · **10-30-08, 06:30 PM**

Not at all...it's very low voltage and current..
You only need to touch.. say the positive lead to the battery..and make and break the connection several times, until you can determine which direction the cone moves, the moment you make the connection..

You will hear a "click" in the speaker when you make contact, but don't worry that it's doing any damage..
I've done this numerous times with different speaker systems and never had a problem..

**Tidan** · **10-30-08, 06:45 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

Not at all...it's very low voltage and current..
You only need to touch.. say the positive lead to the battery..and make and break the connection several times, until you can determine which direction the cone moves, the moment you make the connection..

You will hear a "click" in the speaker when you make contact, but don't worry that it's doing any damage..
I've done this numerous times with different speaker systems and never had a problem..

Its really hard to tell which direction the mid driver moves first. I added some batteries in serial to up the voltage to get a better reading, but to little avail.
I think whats happening is the batteries are deliver DC or sub 1hz to the speaker, the cross over is sending that info to the main bass driver instead of the mid drivers on the front and back of the speaker. So, sending a DC signal to the speaker may not move the mid drivers as thought - only a signal above a certain frequency might move the mids and that would be way too fast to determine what direction the driver moves inititially.
Thoughts?

**salvasol** · **10-30-08, 07:33 PM**

Quote:

Tidan wrote:

... only a signal above a certain frequency might move the mids and that would be way too fast to determine what direction the driver moves inititially. Thoughts?

What about playing some test tones of those frequencies on a CD with your AVR???

**Tidan** · **10-30-08, 07:44 PM**

Quote:

salvasol wrote:

What about playing some test tones of those frequencies on a CD with your AVR???

Right, but then how can you possibly measure the first in vs. out movement of the mid when its doing it 800 to 2000 times a second?! ;-)

**Prof.** · **10-30-08, 07:52 PM**

I've just had a look at that Paradigm surround speaker and it's very similar to my Krix DIY Tripole surrounds..inasmuch that they are radiating sound in three directions..

I hadn't realized that this was the type of surrounds you were using..since you did say dipoles..which normally have only forward and backward radiating sound. ..

I don't understand Paradigm's idea of the phasing not being important..

With my surrounds, it's very important that the phasing is correct, and there is a left side wall speaker and a right side speaker..

I think you're right about the crossover coming into play with the battery test..You would probably only see movement in the bass speaker ..

When I did the test on my surrounds, I disconnected the bass speaker so only the mids were connected to the battery and this clearly showed the cone movement..

This is what you will need to do with yours, to get correct phasing..but I don't know how you feel about opening up the box and diconnecting the base driver..

**JCD** · **10-30-08, 07:55 PM**

Quote:

salvasol wrote:

What about playing some test tones of those frequencies on a CD with your AVR???

That wouldn't push the driver out or in, but rather out and in at the same time. It'd be too hard to see what they were doing in relationg to each other.

The battery trick I thought was supposed to either push or pull the driver in one direction until the battery was disconnected.

JCD

**Prof.** · **10-30-08, 07:55 PM**

Quote:

Tidan wrote:

Right, but then how can you possibly measure the first in vs. out movement of the mid when its doing it 800 to 2000 times a second?! ;-)

Exactly...you could never see the direction of the phasing..because the cone is pulsating..

**Prof.** · **10-30-08, 07:59 PM**

Quote:

JCD wrote:

The battery trick I thought was supposed to either push or pull the driver in one direction until the battery was disconnected.

JCD

That's exactly what it does..

**Tidan** · **10-30-08, 08:06 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

I've just had a look at that Paradigm surround speaker and it's very similar to my Krix DIY Tripole surrounds..inasmuch that they are radiating sound in three directions..

I hadn't realized that this was the type of surrounds you were using..since you did say dipoles..which normally have only forward and backward radiating sound. ..

I don't understand Paradigm's idea of the phasing not being important..

With my surrounds, it's very important that the phasing is correct, and there is a left side wall speaker and a right side speaker..

I think you're right about the crossover coming into play with the battery test..You would probably only see movement in the bass speaker ..

When I did the test on my surrounds, I disconnected the bass speaker so only the mids were connected to the battery and this clearly showed the cone movement..

This is what you will need to do with yours, to get correct phasing..but I don't know how you feel about opening up the box and diconnecting the base driver..

Well, I've opened them once allready to reverse the front and back speaker arrangement on one of the speakers to match the other speaker, or rather to mirror the other speaker. Which gave me a stable image when running tests such as avia - now it shows to be in-phase in the listening position. But I still don't know if the forward facing ends of the speakers are in-phase with the fronts/mains !

**Prof.** · **10-30-08, 08:27 PM**

Quote:

Tidan wrote:

Well, I've opened them once allready to reverse the front and back speaker arrangement on one of the speakers to match the other speaker, or rather to mirror the other speaker. Which gave me a stable image when running tests such as avia - now it shows to be in-phase in the listening position. But I still don't know if the forward facing ends of the speakers are in-phase with the fronts/mains !

If you get a smooth transition of sound from the fronts to the back wall, then you can rest assured that they are in phase with the front speakers..

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